Evesham iplayer - the Freeview PVR you've dreamt about!

[daniel_owen_uk]

Rumour has it you can get away with ext2, and up to 4GB files on the connected drive.

If transfer via ethernet is slow, will it cope with the say 20Mbs required for some files playback?

[chrestomanci]

If it will support ext2 on the USB drive, then that would solve a lot of problems, as there is no longer any (sensible) limit on the size of the filesystem or files.

You can get PC tools that will read and write ext2 file systems, but not mount them. Alternatively you could use the files with a linux box.

[Bob Crabtree]

Rumour has it you can get away with ext2, and up to 4GB files on the connected drive.

If transfer via ethernet is slow, will it cope with the say 20Mbs required for some files playback?

As for ext2 - how can I test that?

I'm running Ubuntu in a VM virtual machine under XP and also have Linspire installed on another machine.

If someone gives me chapter and verse on how to format a USB drive as ext2, then I'll put some files on that drive and see if the iPlayer can read them.

Update

I can see that there is, apparently, an ext2 driver for XP.

I'll give that a try but would still appreciate having a fall-back option of formatting the disk under Ubuntu or Linspire.

Further update

Mmm, this might let Windows access a disk but I don't think any formatting tools are supplied, so I'll need to format as ext2 some other way - possibly the Linspire box will be the best route. Comments?

As for the Ethernet speed - yours is, of course, the 64,000 dollar question.

Currently, my view is that the iPlayer probably will not cope with playback over the network of files as high as 20Mbps.

I haven't done effective tests of that but, in terms of copying files from iplayer to a PC over Ethernet, the best I'm seeing is under 8Mbps but that falls to under 5Mbps when I'm saving files to a drive formatted as FAT32 and attached to the PC by USB 2.0

[daniel_owen_uk]

That could be to do with the HDD controller though, rather than the ethernet controller.

[chrestomanci]

A quick and easy way to gain access to ext2 tools would be via a knoppix disc.

Once you have booted your knoppix install, bring a console window as root, and watch /var/log/messages. Then insert your USB key. You should see a bunch of messages about a new hotplug event etc. Near the end you should see that the new device has been designated a new device node. and more nodes have been created for each partion. Something like /dev/sdc1 would be normal.

Then still as root, run mkfs.ext2 <device> to format the USB key with an ext2 file system. Obvously you need to take extreme care not to accedently format your main hard drive.

[Bob Crabtree]

That could be to do with the HDD controller though, rather than the ethernet controller.

The iplayer's HDD controller, do you mean?

[Bob Crabtree]

A quick and easy way to gain access to ext2 tools would be via a knoppix disc.

Once you have booted your knoppix install, bring a console window as root, and watch /var/log/messages. Then insert your USB key. You should see a bunch of messages about a new hotplug event etc. Near the end you should see that the new device has been designated a new device node. and more nodes have been created for each partion. Something like /dev/sdc1 would be normal.

Then still as root, run mkfs.ext <device> to format the USB key with an ext2 file system. Obvously you need to take extreme care not to accedently format your main hard drive.

My, my. That looks like FUN!

And low-risk, too!


I'm doing a BitTorrent download of the V5.0.1 KNOPPIX CD in the background, so I'll have that option come the morning.

But I kind of suspect that I'll end up running that Linspire machine and try doing it from there!

[daniel_owen_uk]

Yeah I did mean the iplayers although obviously it's unlikely, could FAT32 be slowing it down too, I wouldn't have thought that much.

I may be asking to much of a player, the 20Mbs H264 stuff I have seen is 1080p

[chrestomanci]

A quick and easy way to gain access to ext2 tools would be via a knoppix disc.

My, my. That looks like FUN!

And low-risk, too!

If you know what you are doing it is quick and low risk. It would take me about a minute to format a USB drive under linux.

I deleberately did not give exact specifics because of the risk of getting it wrong. The last thing I want is for someone who knows hardly anything about linux to try following my instructions and trash their main hard drive.

My advice would be that if you understand the instructions I gave, then it should be quick and easy. If you don't then ask a friendly linux expert for to spend two minutes of their time doing it for you.

[Cliff203]

Have just received my iplayer and my first impression is disappointment. The casing is very flimsy, the remote control joystick is very difficult to control so when I try to select ok it often jumps up or down the menu instead. The epg although quite good in its self is too transparent and therefore difficult to read. I’m unable to locate an option to adjust the transparency of the epg or the menus.

I had difficulty getting it to recognise my PC, after about 2 hours tweaking various settings it finally found the PC but I have no idea what I did right.

I have tried to export 2 small files to the PC. First one failed with no explanation and will not allow another attempt. The second one has shown export waiting for over an hour. Waiting for what!!!!!

Export folder disappears from Media centre dialog when iplayer is switched off and requires to be reconnected.

The main selling point of the iplayer is the HD up scaling via the HDMI connection, so why is a Scart lead included and not an HDMI? The HD up scaling is also disappointing. I have a Targa PVR connected to my Samsung TV via component connections and the built in TV up scaling is superior.

Not had it long enough to record much but the recording option impress.

[Bob Crabtree]

If you know what you are doing it is quick and low risk. It would take me about a minute to format a USB drive under linux.

I deleberately did not give exact specifics because of the risk of getting it wrong. The last thing I want is for someone who knows hardly anything about linux to try following my instructions and trash their main hard drive.

My advice would be that if you understand the instructions I gave, then it should be quick and easy. If you don't then ask a friendly linux expert for to spend two minutes of their time doing it for you.

Well, some goodish news!

Something was nagging away at the back of my mind about PowerQuest Partition Magic - of which I have V8 installed here under XP.

And, sure enough, when I looked, I could see that one of the options it has is to format disks for Linux - offering the choice of ext2 or ext3!

So, I formatted an attached USB hard disk as ext2 and installed that ext2 driver for Windows that I mentioned.

That seemed to work fine, so I copied over a bunch of files from the PC and then attached the USB hard disk to the iplayer.

And, yes, it saw the disk drive and let me play the files on it - well, those that are compatible.

However, I'm not presently able to export from the iplayer to that ext2-formatted drive via USB but there's no change there, cos I couldn't export to the same disk when it was formatted as FAT32!

The iplayer gives me me an "Export waiting" message when I go to export a file to that drive but that's all I get - exporting doesn't start.

Oh, and after switching off the iplayer and USB drive - just in case a reboot was needed to sort out the exporting - and then switching on again, I found myself unable even to see that ext2-formatted drive from the iplayer!

However, I turned both off again for about five minutes, turned on the iplayer, left it five minutes, turned on the USB drive and left it five minutes, and then checked again and iplayer was able to see it.

But, as before (and as when the USB disc is formatted as FAT32), iplayer gives an "Export waiting" message when I go to export a file to that drive but exporting doesn't start.

D'oh!

Concerning ext2 - I'm presuming that there is no 2GB/4GB limit with ext2 so will experiment with some big video files and see how iplayer copes - assuming I get the iplayer to see it again via USB after it's been connected again to the PC.

[chrestomanci]

Concerning ext2 - I'm presuming that there is no 2GB/4GB limit with ext2 so will experiment with some big video files and see how iplayer copes - assuming I get the iplayer to see it again via USB after it's been connected again to the PC.

The maximum file size on ext2 is 2 Terabytes, The maximum partion size depends on how the partion is formated, but is usualy between 2 and 8 Terabytes.

See this Kerneltrap.org thread for more information.

[Bob Crabtree]

The maximum file size on ext2 is 2 Terabytes, The maximum partion size depends on how the partion is formated, but is usualy between 2 and 8 Terabytes.

See this Kerneltrap.org thread for more information.

Thanks - though mine was, really, more a rhetorical question than anything.

I have now done some further tests and - thanks to a tip from Evesham - have now managed to export directly via USB for the first time!

Hooray!

Oh, and that tip - not mentioned in the manual - is that when you set up the location where you are going to export (Menu>Preferences>Recordings Export), you need, in the first line (Hostname or IP address of PC) of the screen to set this as usb (in lower case).

After that, no other entries are required on that page.

You do, of course, have to test the configuration (yellow button) then save it (blue button).

And, happily, I found that, with the USB drive formatted as ext2, I could directly export to it very large files - the largest I've tried so far was an HD recording that - on the USB drive - was 8.51GB in size, but I've little doubt that files far larger than that could also be saved - assuming there's room on the disk.

So, as you effectively said, for all practical purposes, ext2 has no file-size limitations with the iplayer.

Also, for anyone else who tries this, know that the Ext2Mgr.exe app that comes as part of the ext2 driver for Windows package is VERY useful.

It lets you mount in XP a drive formatted as ext2 (ie allocate a drive letter and let XP read the drive and write to it) and, contrary to what I had thought, also unmount it - which is important since if you don't unmount a drive then, Windows keeps on seeing that drive letter even if you disconnect the USB drive.

Oh and as for that export over Ethernet 2GB file-size limitation I mentioned in an earlier posting and which someone seemed to think I was imagining - well I've had confirmation that this is indeed a "feature" of iplayer and one that all concerned realise does urgently need fixing, so that you can export any recordings you want that way, not just those that would take up less than 2GB.

No clue yet when this fix might arrive but, hopefully, Netgem will treat this as a priority and sort it out quickly.

So, some good and interesting news, I think.

[wudang]

And, happily, I found that, with the USB drive formatted as ext2, I could directly export to it very large files - the largest I've tried so far was an HD recording that - on the USB drive - was 8.51GB in size, but I've little doubt that files far larger than that could also be saved - assuming there's room on the disk.

Received this email from Evesham tech suppport this afternoon;

I have been advised by our Media Centre expert that the manufacturer of the Evesham Iplayer has confirmed that it is not currently possible to exceed the 4GB FAT32 file size limitation when using an external USB hard disk.

We are aware that the Hexus review on our web-site indicates otherwise, but this is incorrect.

While I appreciate their advice is based on out of the box set up I reckon they'll be turning away sales if they fail to incorporate your updated info asap.

[Bob Crabtree]

Received this email from Evesham tech suppport this afternoon;

I have been advised by our Media Centre expert that the manufacturer of the Evesham Iplayer has confirmed that it is not currently possible to exceed the 4GB FAT32 file size limitation when using an external USB hard disk.

We are aware that the Hexus review on our web-site indicates otherwise, but this is incorrect.

While I appreciate their advice is based on out of the box set up I reckon they'll be turning away sales if they fail to incorporate your updated info asap.

I think it's worth making clear first of that, like I said, everyone concerned (at Evesham and Netgem) knows about the 2GB problem when exporting via Ethernet to a PC and I believe that Netgem is working away furiously to fix it.

I hope that the company does succeed - and quickly - because, that current limit undermines the product's very foundations.

As for the use of ext2, what you got from Evesham was, "the party line", I believe.

Fact is, as I said before, ext2 is a VERY effective way of getting around the stupid limitation (4GB max) that FAT32 imposes.

I have, of course, advised Evesham of my findings and, in that email, I said [stuff in square brackets added by me now, for clarity],

I certainly think that having an [external USB] option not constrained by FAT32's file size limit is worth considering [that was me being a bit too political (read, "soft") - FAT32's limit is a pain and a real downer on the whole product].

Also, know that I was wrong and that the utility I used to mount the ext2-formatted drive under XP does actually allow you to unmount the drive too - and to do that speedily.

The real issue, I think, is not that utility - which works well - but ensuring that folk can safely format their USB drives as ext2, with minimal risk of accidentally formatting their C: drives or any other HDD in the PC.

Definitely worth having a fiddle with to see what you think.

The download (under 2MB) is here: http://ext2fsd.sourceforge.net/projects/projects.htm#insider


When you unzip the file, there is a folder there called Setup and this contains, among other things, the little utility - Ext2Mgr.exe - that lets you mount and unmount ext2 drives [under XP].

For the whole thing to work, does require the installation of drivers which you run from a DOS window/command window but the installation sets this up - all you've got to do is use the right instructions and, for the 32-bit version of XP, that lines is:

Setup wxp


So, it would be utterly trivial to set up a batch file in which people are presented with options to install the appropriate drivers for their operating system (driver versions exist for Win2K, XP and XP64).

What I don't in any way know for sure - but suspect may be the case - is that the use of FAT32 is some how a mandatory restriction imposed on Netgem by companies involved in managing digital rights (whether their own, as content providers, or just on behalf of content providers).

If this isn't the case, then someone at Netgem needs to be taken outside and shot, though not before being given a sound kicking.

After all, using a file system that restricts you to 4GB as a maximum is just plain stupid - so, one would like to think, this was a case of Netgem having its arm held hard behind its back until it said, yes.

And, under those circumstances, the discovery that ext2 works and gets around the FAT32 4GB limit would be seriously embarrassing for Netgem and put it in a bunch of companies' bad books - hence Netgem apparently accusing me of telling porkies and insisting that black is, in fact, white.

What's worrying, though, is that if the digital-rights conundrum I've just floated is near the mark, then there's a good chance that Netgem will have to, somehow, prevent the iplayer from being able to see drives formatted as ext2 - and would do that by stealth in an update that comes down the line some time at three in the morning!

Right now, the iplayer does have the ability to write to and read ext2-formatted hard disks, giving it a level of appeal and practical viability that is denied it by the FAT32 4GB limit.

I have not got even got close to fully gathering my thoughts about iplayer for the review but what I do know is that, without a relatively simple workaround for FAT32 - which Evesham could and should provide if it is allowed to - the product is deeply flawed and is going to get marked down badly in any half-decent review, especially given the product's other shortcomings which include (and the list is far from complete):

* Seriously dodgy handset design (and there's more to this than the fact that some buttons are missing that should be there and others that are there are VERY hard to use accurately)

* Pretty lousy menu and user interface

* Files - described as, "System files (for timeshift)" - that seem to get recorded to hard disk without any reason or any way to stop them (and thus, end up with you running out of space at crucial times!)

* VERY slow export to PCs over Ethernet (under 5Mbit/sec ie little more than 0.62MByte/sec)

* Inability to playback HD recordings via Ethernet. And know that this is based on VERY many tests I've done, with every variable varied to try to find if the problem is with my network - which I don't think it is.

That Ethernet problem I find shocking given that, by my calcs, the data rate of playback of HD from Freeview is only 2.94MByte/sec (23.55Mbit/sec), which 100-BaseT Ethernet should handle with no problems at all - and my network can easily do in PC-to-PC transfers, as you'd expect.

Oh and look back at our review of the Pinnacle ShowCenter 200 to see how few problems we had with Ethernet with that product.

And also check out our devolo review to see the sorts of speeds that you can get from 100Base-T Ethernet (see Test 5).

* Unacceptably small-capacity internal hard disk (well it's unacceptable if there's no easy FAT32 workaround and the Ethernet issues aren't resolved).

Oh and I'm not at all sure what Evesham means by a HEXUS review.

There has, as yet, been on HEXUS review though I reckon that this thread contains more useful info about the iplayer than any review you are likely to read elsewhere!

There will, of course, be a HEXUS review but - as I hope people who've been following this thread will be able to appreciate - there has been a huge amount to check out.

Indeed, a good bit of testing still remains to be done!

Gulp!

Little update

Ah, now I've found out what Evesham meant when it said, "the Hexus review on our web-site".

What's up there is actually an extract of my last news story about iplayer, so absolutely is NOT a review - even though Evesham has put it up as being one - and, of course, it contains not a word about ext2 or any such stuff.

I'd like to think that Evesham will do as I have just asked by email and pull that news story from the iplayer reviews area on LOW and from the review areas of any other of its sites where it might appear.

Mind you, the article that appears above is claimed by its author to be a review but, to my mind, isn't anything of the kind, but I would say that, wouldn't I?

The two (an extract from my news story and an extract from the gadgetcentre review) can presently be found here.

I won't give gadgetcentre the benefit of any traffic that might flow from my including here a link to its original "review" but anyone who really wants to read it can readily figure out its location after visiting the above LOW page.

[damianw]

Got mine yesterday, unfortunately I've no way to link it to a PC yet so can't comment on its supposed raison d'etre. I have, however, used it purely as a PVR. Now bear in mind I've never had or used a PVR before, so my comments are probably worthless but:
1. I like the iplayer's small footprint
2. As far as I can tell its totally silent, I'm very impressed with that
3. the Guide, setting up recordings and playing them back is very easy
4. Lack of twin tuner has already proved annoying
5. The remote control is a weird shape, very cheap looking, and the joystick is annoying to use. That said its quite comfortable to use.
6. Doesn't seem to auto-switch to widescreen/normal correctly, and also doesn't automatically switch my TV to the ext channel when I switch on the player. This is pretty basic stuff. It also doesn't switch aspect on recordings, don't know if thats a normal PVR thing. EDIT: This is wrong, my SCART cables weren't setup correctly...

Going off to see if I can get a wireless bridge later today, hopefully check the networky side out.