Bah! Eclipse traffic management / throttling is just a joke

[TheAnimus]

thats stupid, we pay for unlimited broadband, we should get unlimited broadband, without ISPs telling us what we can and cant do!

no, no you didn't, so no, no you shouldn't.

Read the contract, your in contention for it, 50:1 on a 2mbit line, theoretically your unlimited limit is about 12.8gig a month.

Usenet can help cut costs, because you can be talking just to your ISPs server. Packet routing is actually easyer when its from only one source, not 10 dosen. Buffering, contention windows and the like are expensive (memory + proccessing) overheads which P2P brings a lot off, (because of how limited the upstream is, the fact that you have to maintain so many bits of data for each route).

ADSL network, i wasn't really thinking of the impact of that one much when i was saying about usenet, because with LLU people can take the load of BT a bit, with their own ideas of what constitutes unlimited.

[dangel]

no, no you didn't, so no, no you shouldn't..

Except he did, and so he should

Broadband is advertised as 'unlimited' - clearly this says one thing to a customer whilst their contract says another. Personally, I can't believe that's allowed - it's plainly misleading to your average punter.

[Paranoid2000]

Read the contract, your in contention for it, 50:1 on a 2mbit line, theoretically your unlimited limit is about 12.8gig a month.

That certainly is the case with most ADSL lines (making a "fair share" of a 2mbit link a mere 4.8KB/s if everyone was using it). Eclipse however offer different priority levels depending on how much you pay so maybe UltraMagnus is on Option 1 or 2, being squeezed out by those paying more?

As for countries like Korea or Hong Kong, they are easier to network - more people live in high-rise apartments which require less cabling work to connect. The UK has had a slow start (thanks to BT's previous monopoly position) but it does appear now to be doing better than many European countries (and the United States) in broadband provision (see Google's HTML copy of the DTI's International Broadband Market Comparisons Update June 2005 - the original PDF has moved elsewhere).

Anyone who wasn't around in the days of pay-per-minute dialup only access (or experiencing the joy of having to dial 100 times or more to be able to connect to RedHotAnt, one of the first unmetered services) who complains about network access now, just doesn't appreciate how good things are compared to just 5-6 years ago.

[badass]

Except he did, and so he should

Broadband is advertised as 'unlimited' - clearly this says one thing to a customer whilst their contract says another. Personally, I can't believe that's allowed - it's plainly misleading to your average punter.

Unlimited hours online perhaps? When compared to dialup they are telling the truth.
P.S. If you are notified of changes to the contract you get a chance to opt out. If you dont take it you accept the contract so stop moaning and pay for the service you bloody use!

[dangel]

Unlimited hours online perhaps? When compared to dialup they are telling the truth.

"unlimited broadband" is the phrase - hardly conclusively "unlimited hours". Obviously, most people expect to be able to use the connection completely unlimited (that is a reasonble conclusion for 'unlimited broadband') - hence the resentment from customers when they realise it's anything but.. Comparisons to dialup are moot for an 'always on' connection - when i had dialup my 'hours' were also unlimited..

It's only going to get worse too - the number of people needing serious bandwidth will explode come IPTV (sky/bt/etc) take up..

[UltraMagnus]

i actually cant wait untill IPTV comes along, because then bandwith limits and throttling might become a more "public" issue....

[TheAnimus]

Except he did, and so he should

Broadband is advertised as 'unlimited' - clearly this says one thing to a customer whilst their contract says another. Personally, I can't believe that's allowed - it's plainly misleading to your average punter.

as people have said, unlimited hours, and un-limited usage of whats available to you. There probably capping him well above he's ratio, he's contracted 13gig a month. that is fair!

RedHotAnt, hell that takes me back, can't belive that was 6 years ago now.... i feal so old, i'm only 21. I used to dial up with my ISDN, they would let you have dual channel too off one yearly fee! Then they went bust.

[badass]

"unlimited broadband" is the phrase - hardly conclusively "unlimited hours". Obviously, most people expect to be able to use the connection completely unlimited (that is a reasonble conclusion for 'unlimited broadband') - hence the resentment from customers when they realise it's anything but.. Comparisons to dialup are moot for an 'always on' connection - when i had dialup my 'hours' were also unlimited..

Its not about being conclusive or any of that. If its not plain misleading then they can get away with it. If it is then the ASA would have taken action by now. Its also not about what you think it should mean. Its what a reasonable person might think.

[Paranoid2000]

...i'm only 21.

Shhh - don't give the game away. You won't be able to credibly lecture others here about acoustic couplers, Prestel or Micronet 800 if they know you're in your early twenties.

[dangel]

Its not about being conclusive or any of that. If its not plain misleading then they can get away with it. If it is then the ASA would have taken action by now. Its also not about what you think it should mean. Its what a reasonable person might think.

So i'm not a reasonable person? Ahem.. Perhaps you didn't quite mean it as typed eh? In any case, I disagree - Joe public doesn't understand the technicalities hidden away in nice 'fair use policy' - the headline is unlimited, so it's reasonable to expect exactly that. The number of times i've heard people complaining about this very thing confirms it's a fairly common view - and with forcoming high-bandwidth services more and more people will hit that hidden wall..

[neonplanet40]

You think with HDTV over the internet coming and IPTV etc etc that these caps are going to work? Its a joke that we have to pay so much tbh. I cant see a long term future in high speed broadband if isp's continue in the paths they are on. It just isnt going to work because high speed and large capacitys is what is going to be needed in the near future.

I could rant on for days to be honest but whats the point? Its not going to change anything. People are saying here that unlimited doesnt mean "unlimited". Read a dictionary please. You tell me what it says. If it is changed in anyway like ISP's are doing then it IS misleading. End of story.

Neon

[nichomach]

So i'm not a reasonable person? Ahem.. Perhaps you didn't quite mean it as typed eh? In any case, I disagree - Joe public doesn't understand the technicalities hidden away in nice 'fair use policy'

And Joe public expects to be able to surf for as long as he wants, when he wants, pick up his email and not have a metered bill at the end of it. "Unlimited broadband" allows him to do exactly that, plus more besides. Joe Public is not a heavy P2P user, and will never be hit by traffic management. He'll get to go online as much as he wants as often as he wants, without getting hit with additional charges. And that's what he'll understand by "unlimited".

All the ads for "unlimited" broadband that I've seen recently state that terms and conditions apply or that they are subject to a "fair use" policy. Tiscali - link to the FUP from the page for each level of broadband service, with a "fair usage policy applies" note - which also links to the FUP. Eclipse links to theirs from the product page for their Evolution product and advises on how to avoid being traffic managed. All of the providers do.

- the headline is unlimited, so it's reasonable to expect exactly that. The number of times i've heard people complaining about this very thing confirms it's a fairly common view - and with forcoming high-bandwidth services more and more people will hit that hidden wall..

No, it's reasonable to expect exactly what the terms and conditions for the service that you purchase provide. Especially when the ads tell you that Ts&Cs apply. Especially when they're linked to from the web page for the service. If you want a different service, then you pay for a different service.

[dangel]

And Joe public expects to be able to surf for as long as he wants, when he wants, pick up his email and not have a metered bill at the end of it..

...watch streaming video, listen to internet radio, download updates for windows et al, the kids using msn for sending music to each other/webcam and soon IPTV. Sorry but the reality is that it's all a ticking timebomb - you're right in the sense that the majority don't know what they signed up for yet, but that's only because they clicked 'unlimited broadband' thinking 'great deal'. Sure, as technical able people it's obvious to us but trust me - for the majority of people i build and maintain machines for they're darn shocked when they get a capping letter. Even my folks hit their limit recently (metronet) and were seriously worried by the email they got - they simply don't understand bits and bytes - it's all mumbo jumbo to joe public (and so it should be). At the end of the day it's not unlimited if it's capped now is it? Not exactly rocket science, and it's obvious from posts here (even with this being a technical forum) that some folk see it that way too..

Interestingly, here's a quote from an AOL ad emailed to me today:

"Unlimited broadband from just £14.99***"

which they classify as (in the small print at the footer of the page)
"***Unlimited broadband refers to no time or download limits."

..interesting that their definition of unlimited (as an ISP to boot) doesn't coincide with yours.

[neonplanet40]

And Joe public expects to be able to surf for as long as he wants, when he wants, pick up his email and not have a metered bill at the end of it. "Unlimited broadband" allows him to do exactly that, plus more besides. Joe Public is not a heavy P2P user, and will never be hit by traffic management. He'll get to go online as much as he wants as often as he wants, without getting hit with additional charges. And that's what he'll understand by "unlimited".

All the ads for "unlimited" broadband that I've seen recently state that terms and conditions apply or that they are subject to a "fair use" policy. Tiscali - link to the FUP from the page for each level of broadband service, with a "fair usage policy applies" note - which also links to the FUP. Eclipse links to theirs from the product page for their Evolution product and advises on how to avoid being traffic managed. All of the providers do.



No, it's reasonable to expect exactly what the terms and conditions for the service that you purchase provide. Especially when the ads tell you that Ts&Cs apply. Especially when they're linked to from the web page for the service. If you want a different service, then you pay for a different service.

To be honest if the ISP's wanted poeple to really know that it wasn't unlimited then they would not say UNLIMITED. You can argue this to the death but you cannot expect your Avergae Joe person to know as much as you may do about the internet. Or caps or throttling or FUP.

They think they are getting broadband and if it says unlimited then thats a bonus becuase he thinks well if this is unlimited then i wont get any hidden charges etc etc as its unlimited and unlimited is never ending.

We may know different but we aren't your average Joe's. Try looking at it from a complete noobs point of view. "O look HDTV trailers why dont i get them!" , " ah great a 1.5 GB Demo (what is a GB? )" ,"O i can steam TV channels and radios on my computer!! GREAT!!"

Then at the end of the month a bill comes. Total £55. " why have i got this it MUST be wrong!! Im only suppost to pay £29.99 a month!"

He rings up CS. "ive been overcharged".

"No sir you havent you went over your monthly limit and have been charged for your additional usuage"

"But i have UNLIMTIED usage!"

"No sir it is unlimited BUT usage restrictions apply......"

" "

Now it may not go quite like that but you can get my point. When something is limited in anyway it cannot be UNLIMITED. I mean look at any dictionary other than plusnets and you will see unlimited means EXACTLY THAT!

I get it that we know different BUT the Average Joe DOES NOT!

End of long post and rant.

Neon

[greektony]

i completely agree with neonplanet. All this capping seems a real slap in the face to what we hear on TV about Blair wanting to push Britain as a leader in telecommunications and the internet. In the foreseeable future their will be main stream TV channels which you can stream off the net....Hell I already to subscribe to a small winammp one. You want to watch HD film trailers, download music, game patches and demos. As time moves on all of these are going to get larger in size. But whats the point if all thats happening is that the ISPs are stifiling all this progress.

I also run a few websites for friends bands.....nothing seriously proffesional.....so I am always aware of the fact that i need an ISP where i'm not constantly checking my download limit and getting skiddies when I come close to the limit. Hence the reason i left PlusNet (awwww come on - I was with them for a year so I should be allowed this anonomous dig at them )

Anyway, back to the point..........i think some south park spirit is needed here......we should tell all these Jews to SUCK MY BALLS

(Please be aware that these views are not my own......They are SouthParks)

[neonplanet40]

^^ dude remove the jews bit, just in case someone takes offence anyway even though it isnt your opinion.

Neon