W(hy)TF do we still bother with optical media?

[transylvanic]

So I was just thinking about netbooks and how DVD drives seem to be becoming more and more redundant and then I wondered, why have them at all?

Fair enough, flash drives can't compete with blu-ray discs on a per-GB price just yet, but they require a simple USB slot, whereas entering the blu-ray market requires a big initial fee. I just can't see the sense, however, in most applications where DVDs are used in not supplanting them with flash drives. The media is more robust, and it saves on space and packaging.

Most annoying is the fact that microsoft don't seem to care about this. To downgrade Vista, you need a floppy drive (seriously!). Personally, as soon as USB drives are made bootable by default and MS start shipping USB drive copies of windows, I'm ditching the optical drive forever.

Your thoughts?

[Funkstar]

Production costs for optical media is a fraction of that for flash memory. There was supposed to be a write-once flash like memory coming from SanDisk, but I haven't heard anything about that in a couple of years now.

Although it can get cratched, optical media is still far more stable than a USB stick. No chance of it being erased, and if yoiu do damage the reading surface, you can usually buff out the scratches.

Other than an OS, online distribution is going to replace opticals long before flash memory in my opinion.

What I don't see a lot of point in for myself is writable media. granted there are very good uses for it, and we create a lot of promotional and technical CDs and DVDs at work, but despite the piles of blank media, I can't remember the last time I burned a disk for my own use.

[Pob255]

I still burn dvd's quite often, both for work and personal.
It's still a very good methord for data backup without going to the high cost of a tape drive.
While I have memory stick and they are great for smaller files I've only got a 2gb and a 4gb stick so for large amounts of data (game demos) I often burn them onto dvd.

As Funkstar has said they are also more robust, I get about one broken memory stick to deal with every two weeks, common issues are snaped, bent or damaged conector, corrupted formatting and plane dead.

Also bootable usb sticks while good for newer motherboards still have a heck of a lot of issues with older motherboards.
I tried making a USB boot disk for work for ghosting, but I just could not get it to work.

I will say they have made floppies redundant (execpt for OS )

[Clunk]

and if yoiu do damage the reading surface, you can usually buff out the scratches.

So that's what you were doing on the bus the other day?

[WhiteGiant]

I can't remember the last time I burnt anything for myself, done a few bits and bobs for friends though.

Until Bluray writing becomes more mainstream I'll make do with various external HDDs as backup (writing over 500g to DVD would be a pain).

[Funkstar]

So that's what you were doing on the bus the other day?

what's a "bus"?

[scaryjim]

Firstly, optical media isn't just about computers. It'll be a long time before "teh intertubes" can cope with *everyone* streaming all their videos and HD media, and frankly most media companies are still very suspicious of the whole "legal download" side of things, so they'll still produce CDs, DVDs and BDs for retail. A lot of people like having a bit of technology that they can just stick a disk in and it'll work!

Secondly, DVDs are just so damn convenient as an install media! You can keep huge stacks of them in a smallish box, and just pull them out when you need them - no messing about trawling through folders full of .exe installables or .iso images, saving it off to a pen drive, transferring it to the new computer - you just stick them in the drive. For that alone I think they will remain a popular install medium (again, media companies like their profits and feel they're more controllable via retail than download?).

And finally, it's a cheap technology - not just for production of media but for compatible hardware too. An internal DVD drive is only about £15, and external drives (or drive + caddy/adapter) start at about £40. I doubt those prices will come down much now, but they're low enough to make DVDs widely accessible, which will boost media companies' confidence in releasing to DVD. It's all a bit cyclical, but I think it adds up to a long life for DVDs (and potentially blu-ray) in the future.

oh, and just a quick final word on blu-ray: I was very dismissive of it until I researched it a bit more and found that a single re-writeable dual-layer BD could hold 50GB of data - at which point BD becomes a genuine option for backups (certainly in the smallish group I support...)...

[GheeTsar]

I'm really stuck in my ways with optical media when it comes to films and music. MP3's just don't have the same audio quality and my internets can't handle massive downloads all the time. There's also the resell option for CDs, DVDs, some games and Blu Ray, which you can't really do with downloads.

[Dreaming]

Secondly, DVDs are just so damn convenient as an install media! You can keep huge stacks of them in a smallish box, and just pull them out when you need them - no messing about trawling through folders full of .exe installables or .iso images, saving it off to a pen drive, transferring it to the new computer - you just stick them in the drive. For that alone I think they will remain a popular install medium (again, media companies like their profits and feel they're more controllable via retail than download?).

I disagree with you here; if I am able to, I store installers on my PC. The main one I struggle with is games because they use securom and stuff and you need to have the physical disc in the drive, but I've found steam is quite a good replacement. I downloaded office 2007 and that's kept on my PC (legally - www.theultimatesteal.com). Basically every time I download an installer, it goes in /apps/ which has folders for office, security, performance, phone (for roms and stuff), benchmarking, design... etc.

If I ever want to put something on, I just go to the relevent folder. Far more convenient than trying to find a DVD, for me at least.

[TAKTAK]

mp3's just don't have the same audio quality

FLAC FTW


(this is a lowercase letter to stop the forum auto case dropping )

[Sputnik]

Like Funkstar said, It boils down to cost and robustness. A writeable or Re-writeable DVD only costs a few pence for 4.7Gb of storage and is not easily broken.

Another thing I like about Optical media over USB flash drives is, that windows won't set it up as another hardware device, It is classed as the existing hardware (DVD drive).

[Funkstar]

Firstly, optical media isn't just about computers.

<snip>

Quite right. And non-computer devices now are probably more likely to have ethernet connections or wireless radios than they are to have USB ports or flash readers.

Other than for specialist markets, BluRay is going to be the last great optical media. It's going to take another year or two for it to become really mainstream, and by that point a great deal more content is oging to be available online.

Granted shifting 25GB for an HD title isn't feasable right now, and thats why BluRay will continue for a while yet. But considering how long it has taken to get where it is, we aren't going to see anything else like it.

This may be a good thing

[MSIC]

Back in Nov 08 i posted this, a comparison of storage costs..
http://forums.hexus.net/hexus-lifest...age-costs.html

[Saracen]

I use optical media for archiving. And bear in mind, "optical media" covers more than just DVD-R and blu-ray. For a start, I still use PD disks, MO discs and DVD-RAM.

For me, a sound backup strategy involves determining different needs for different types of data, and backing up accordingly.

I use hard drives for complete system backups, but I also use DVD-R to store basic OS build images for specific machines. I build the OS, install my basic app set and image it.

Then there's data that uses large volumes but for which I'm not that bothered about backup. A common example of that type of thing might be MP3 files where I could always recreate them from CD if need-be. Another example would be scanned images where I can always rescan the print or film. That type of data sits on a RAID setup on my server, but I copy periodically to DVD.

However, experience tells me that DVD isn't that stable for long-term archiving. So for data where I can't recreate it, such as photos direct from my digital camera, I adopt a rather more robust model. The data sits on that RAID setup, but it's backed up to an external disk and to another machine. That gives me three copies on HD. It also goes onto external optical media, usually DVD-RAM, though some of it also gets a one-shot copy to MO or PD, and at the same time, to DVD-R. And, periodically, I refresh those copies.

My accounting data gets the same sort of structured storage approach, though even more rigorous. I don't want to lose photos, but I really don't want to lose accounting data. Firstly, I've got a statutory duty to keep it for several years, and secondly, from a pragmatic viewpoint, it'd take me a LOT of time to manually recreate the computer records from source documentation. I really, really don't want to have to do that.


So I use optical media of several different types, in several different ways, according to what it is I'm using it for, and I'm NOT relying on anything permanently connected to a power supply, or that's subject to theft if I get burgled, or flood/fire/meteorite strike (etc), for the really critical stuff. Flash memory might be convenient, but I don't have sufficient evidence of it's longevity to trust it for archiving, and the cost/capacity ratio doesn't stack up when you need a hierarchical storage structure (of the grandfather-father-son variety) for resilience, and for off-site backup.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I use optical media for archiving. And bear in mind, "optical media" covers more than just DVD-R and blu-ray. For a start, I still use PD disks, MO discs and DVD-RAM.

For me, a sound backup strategy involves determining different needs for different types of data, and backing up accordingly.

I use hard drives for complete system backups, but I also use DVD-R to store basic OS build images for specific machines. I build the OS, install my basic app set and image it.

Then there's data that uses large volumes but for which I'm not that bothered about backup. A common example of that type of thing might be MP3 files where I could always recreate them from CD if need-be. Another example would be scanned images where I can always rescan the print or film. That type of data sits on a RAID setup on my server, but I copy periodically to DVD.

However, experience tells me that DVD isn't that stable for long-term archiving. So for data where I can't recreate it, such as photos direct from my digital camera, I adopt a rather more robust model. The data sits on that RAID setup, but it's backed up to an external disk and to another machine. That gives me three copies on HD. It also goes onto external optical media, usually DVD-RAM, though some of it also gets a one-shot copy to MO or PD, and at the same time, to DVD-R. And, periodically, I refresh those copies.

My accounting data gets the same sort of structured storage approach, though even more rigorous. I don't want to lose photos, but I really don't want to lose accounting data. Firstly, I've got a statutory duty to keep it for several years, and secondly, from a pragmatic viewpoint, it'd take me a LOT of time to manually recreate the computer records from source documentation. I really, really don't want to have to do that.


So I use optical media of several different types, in several different ways, according to what it is I'm using it for, and I'm NOT relying on anything permanently connected to a power supply, or that's subject to theft if I get burgled, or flood/fire/meteorite strike (etc), for the really critical stuff. Flash memory might be convenient, but I don't have sufficient evidence of it's longevity to trust it for archiving, and the cost/capacity ratio doesn't stack up when you need a hierarchical storage structure (of the grandfather-father-son variety) for resilience, and for off-site backup.

Yep, I agree entirely!! I keep copies of my most important files on multiple hard disks and have multiple DVD copies too. It is also prudent to have backups at more than one place too. At least people have a rough indication of how long optical media will actually last before problems start.
Also I use DVDs with better quality dyes and longlife surface coatings too rather than el cheapo ones and ALWAYS burn at low speed with verification. I use at least two different brands of DVD when doing a backup.
I also backup very important files onto archival CD as I have found that CD is a more robust backup medium.

I am not sure about how durable the newer optical media types are as they have thinner surface layers. Blu-Ray needs to use a TDK licensed coating for the format to be viable as even a slight scratch probably may cause issues with such a high data density! Luckily there are DVDs with this coating and they are very durable.

Do PD discs and MO discs have a longer life than an archival CD though?? I know that minidisc is a MO disc and they last very long. Can you still buy writers and media for these older disk types still? Is DVD-RAM a better backup medium than the other DVD types?? I am just asking as I into photography and want to know which media will have the longest lifespan.

[transylvanic]

... media companies like their profits and feel they're more controllable via retail than download?

Media companies are trying to perpetuate an outdated content distribution model which carried ridiculous profit margins for them. Those that keep trying to maintain the distribution of digital content through physical means/media are walking what I would call the Lehman Brothers path.

Another thing I like about Optical media over USB flash drives is, that windows won't set it up as another hardware device, It is classed as the existing hardware (DVD drive).

Can't see why that matters.

I also can't argue against the two foremost points about DVDs: they are ubiquitous and a cheap resource to use. Which is fine, I'm not saying throw them all out, I just figure at least some manufacturer should be making a push away from optical drives. Think about laptops and SFF cases and the fact that a proper dvd drive takes up some 15/20% of the internal space. That amount of space isn't proportional to the drive's value, is all I'm saying.