NEW BUILD no-SLI/CF - Case/mobo/graphics Help please?

[Pob255]

I seem to remember the motherboards are custom made, these originally came out when the yorkfield was the fastest cpu, before the i7 came out.
The custom motherboard is also probably the reason they've not got 1366 motherboards yet.

I don't think they've fully updated the details as I doubt you'd need 2 650w psu's to power 2 gts250's, some of the high end 9series probably did.
However I'd look at a single more powerful gpu anyway. GTX285

From that I'd look at
# Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550
# Hardcore-customized NVIDIA GeForce GTX 285

I'd also ask about memory, 2x 2GB DDR3 modules is ok and probably all that's needed but it depends on what you want to do with it, more maybe better.
Contacting them and finding out more would be a very good idea if you're willing to spend that sort of money.

[TAKTAK]

Now that's a radiator:
[img]http://dl.maximumpc.com/galleries/hardcorepc/hardcorepc_16_full.jpg[img]

That's not a radiator, the one i saw on thursday outside work was a radiator, took up the whole trailer of a low-loader (wish i'd taken a piccy )

[Perfectionist]

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/fea...tor?page=0%2C1

http://209.46.18.79/HCforums/showthread.php?p=394 (i7 issue)
edit: http://209.46.18.79/HCforums/showthread.php?t=133 (update)

Hmm found this too: http://www.biohazardcomputers.us/

Phase change cooling e.g. liquid evaporation/condensing (doesn't say which but guessing the former), doesn't explain whether or not you need to keep topping the liquid up though which would be pretty lame. Nasty overuse of flash on their site, but go to the "Cooling" link and you'll see what I mean

Claims fastest 3D mark vantage score while hardcore computers are claiming similar... - Not sure about the scientific aspects of whether phase change or liquid moving rapidly is more efficient, but "biohazard" are claiming they get sub-zero temps

[Pob255]

Phase change cooling is the basisys for heat pipes and air con
As a liquid boils (aka turns to vapour, aka changes phase) it absorbs far more energy, as this vapour cool and condenses it releases the energy it absorbed.
What this means is you can move heat away from one location to another very quickly, you still need to disapate this heat out into the surrounding environment (ie the air outside the case)
And ofcourse the fluid at the hot point has to be constantly replenshed.
In a heat pipe this is achieved through simple capillery action, through a wick inside the heat pipe or a grooved/power coated inmer surface, the capillery action draws the condensing fluid at the cool end of the heat pipe back to the hot end to be revaporised.

[Zhaoman]

Phase change is how fridges and freezers work so yeah you would get sub-zero temps but it is damn noisy.

OK, hardcore PCs aside...

I'd seriously consider the air-cooled build TAKTAK has suggested but minus the GTX285 as it is noisy so doesn't actually solve the noise problem. It's very hard to find a high-end GPU which is quiet under load so you'd either have to wait for the custom-cooled 5870s (the Sapphire Vapor-X is just around the corner) to come in or you'd just have to make do with something a bit less powerful ala the sapphire vapor-x 4890

http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/1Gb-S...90-1GB-VAPOR-X

The rest of TAKTAK's build will be very quiet, more so than even a watercooled set-up imo since you don't have the extra noise of the pump. You have to remember that watercooled is only quiet because the fans can spin slower due to greater fin densities = greater heat transfer (but too dense and it can't pull any air... we'll not get into the specifics ) but TAKTAK's build has more than enough cooling potential for the fans to spin slowly and still push a lot of heat out of your system. The only thing bringing the noise issue up is the GPU and I think the Vapor-X edition of the 5870 will sort that out nicely for you

As for liquid submersion... doesn't that PC emit a constant low grumble that's both annoying and slightly spooky? in my humble opinion air-cooled is the best way to go for you. Big, slow fans are the closest thing to silence you're gonna get

[Pob255]

The Reactor pc combines submersion and liquid cooling with a giant rad and fan, it draws in liquid from the top pumps it through the rad then out through pipes to the blocks, the blocks are open, so the liquid is released back into the body.
Basically they've turned the case into a giant resiviour and stuck the pc into it, what this means is you have a large body of liquid with a very large heat capasity and just one large slow moving fan.

That and from a design point that case is just superb

[Perfectionist]

I love how they integrated an X-Fi sound card into the motherboard (I read they worked with Creative themselves to do it), that is just sheer brilliance.

http://209.46.18.79/HCforums/showthr...p?t=71#post170
I also love that water cooling is "old school", lol Feels like I'd be skipping a generation of PCs.

Low grumble? Where'd you read that? Or you mean the freezer-based PCs not the liquid-immersed ones, yeah I imagine they would, I'll skip them then, I just thought I'd mention cos they sounded vaguely interesting



Anyway yeah, as I'd wait to see how hardcore computers implement i7 anyway (and hopefully nvidia 300 series graphics when that's out, though I'm guessing if it works with 200 it will probably work fine with 300 who knows) I'm still open to looking at a normal system.

As for graphics cards, I'll probably wait for the nvidia 300s like a couple said inc pob and taktak, I really don't want to go ATI again anyway like I said in my original post (I'm not going to restate it all, I spent time writing to try be thorough with ideas and questions and I get the feeling people skipped over some of it because I get told stuff with no argument as to why I should use it! )

hmm, for the CPU taktak why don't you recommend the 920? Someone else was going to buy an 860 in another thread and got warned against it

mobo: I'm not sure what socket really means other than certain CPUs only work with certain sockets, so kinda lost on me. I was thinking of just buying the highest end one, whatever the equiv is of striker 2/rampage these days (I was looking at them back when I picked this last PC)

PSU: Yeah I guess another Corsair 1000HX is probably overkill for only one graphics card, I figured it would just make things last longer though. Is a larger one more or less energy efficient?

HDD: Looks good, I think I might buy an upgrade in size or two from that SSD though as thinking of the average game size 5gigs or so these days (and likely to rise) 80GB looks a bit short

Water cooling v air cooling - You really think those fans you picwould be as quiet/quieter than water-cooled, and also provide sufficient cooling on max load of a card? I notice on the megahalem heat sink stack it recommends 1600rpm as optimum rather than the 1200 of the noctuas, I'm kind of wary of overheating as my 4870X2 seemed to be pretty prone to it over any proper time playing a game.

Zhaoman thanks for the help that's interesting I didn't know there were custom-fitted graphics cards already with quieter cooling, that's nice. I wonder if there's anything like that for the 200 series or will be 300 series (which is the one I am most likely going to get)? You're right about the GPU I think because that's pretty much my experience with my last highend card, it was like an aeroplane engine revving up at times. Though I ended up having to put all case fans on max as well too anyway to try and avoid the glitchiness/overheating/crashing.

[Zhaoman]

The reason I recommend the 5870 in all of my posts is because that's the current 'best' card to get. I didn't include GTX300 in my considerations is because we have no idea when they will hit the market so you could be waiting for as long as next summer (hopefully not)

About the watercool vs air-cool: the only difference between watercooling and aircooling is that the heat is transferred from your components to the 'rad' by water (in watercooling) instead of heatpipes (in air-cooling). (I use the word 'rad' very loosely here to denote any sort of heatsink) The 'rads' also tend to be a lot bigger in watercooling loops and with much larger fin densities than the heatsinks of air-cooled cpu coolers. Thus there is a faster transfer of heat between the component and the air that is exhausted out. But with watercooling you still need fans to exhaust the air and infact the higher fin densities of the rads mean that there is an increased amount of noise with the same fan speed. And watercooling loops also feature a pump for your listening pleasure.

So watercooling doesn't necessarily mean 'quieter', all it does is have the capacity to move heat from the component to the air faster thus allowing more heat per second to be dissipated. As Pob pointed out earlier watercooling is great for overclocks for this reason. As for a 'quiet' PC, there isn't any difference in acoustic performance between a non-overclocked air-cooled and non-overclocked watercooled PC since they both feature the same fans. However the air-cooled will struggle with the extra heat outputted per second under heavy overclocking while the watercooled will be able to cope with this.

I hope that explains why I reckon air-cooled is a better bet for your situation since noise is the #1 concern here (followed by extreme performance... ) I stand by my recommendations for the Vapour-X 5870 as it will be damn quiet and won't have any of the driver issues of the CF and SLi cards

Here's an explanation of how the Vapour-X cards work:

http://www.hexus.net/content/item.ph...=2&search=eVGA

The slow-spinning fan is practically inaudible when pootling around under little or no load, and it's marginally louder when placed under a 3D stress-test

And couple that with the fantastic thermal performance of the 5870 and it should be a winner:

http://www.hexus.net/content/item.ph...14&search=5870

edit: wow explaining techie PC stuff really takes it out of you! imho i think the 5870 Vapor-X fits your needs perfectly out of everything on the market today. It's just that it's gonna be a few weeks before it is out.

[Noggin]

I wouldn't buy a GTX285 the 5850 is cheaper, faster and direct x 11. The 5870 is better still of course and the card I've gone for though not as good bang for your buck wise. Buying at GTX285 at the moment (unless of course your main desire is folding) is completely bonkers.

Waiting to see what nvidea do with their new cards is of course an option but I don't see it being likely that you are going to have one in time for christmas and they of course will be significantly more expensive than the ati 5870. If your happy waiting till next year then great, you'll have more options and hopefully a competative marketplace again at the moment nvidea isn't competative.

My computer from scan will arrive in about 9 days so I can't comment on them much yet other than to say the service I've received so far has been great.

So watercooling doesn't necessarily mean 'quieter', all it does is have the capacity to move heat from the component to the air faster thus allowing more heat per second to be dissipated. As Pob pointed out earlier watercooling is great for overclocks for this reason. As for a 'quiet' PC, there isn't any difference in acoustic performance between a non-overclocked air-cooled and non-overclocked watercooled PC since they both feature the same fans. However the air-cooled will struggle with the extra heat outputted per second under heavy overclocking while the watercooled will be able to cope with this.

Thats not really true because on a high end pc under load by far the noisyest component is the graphics card, you remove most of that noise by water cooling. You get to have a large surface area radiator to distribute the heat with slow moving fans to assist, something like the vapor x air cooled graphics may well be better than referance air coolers but still won't compete with a good water cooling system noise wise.

[Perfectionist]

on a high end pc under load by far the noisyest component is the graphics card, you remove most of that noise by water cooling. You get to have a large surface area radiator to distribute the heat with slow moving fans to assist, something like the vapor x air cooled graphics may well be better than referance air coolers but still won't compete with a good water cooling system noise wise.

But Noggin/Zhaoman/anyone else who wants to help, what's this about

the higher fin densities of the rads mean that there is an increased amount of noise with the same fan speed. And watercooling loops also feature a pump for your listening pleasure.

though, wouldn't those two & the fans still necessary in watercooling add up to more noise than air-cooled (again I haven't had a chance to try out a watercooled one yet)?

[Noggin]

High end air cooled graphics cards like the 5870 and 295 both get up near 65db under load and thats loud. water cooled pumps can be as low as in the mid 20's db, the fans that cool the radiators will just be more of the other fans you already have in the case and they will likely be mid 20's db too (those are manufacturers numbers though, realistically they probably are a bit higher but absolutly nothing like the 65 of the graphics card).

Sure without a graphics card an air cooled computer can compete with a water cooled one because there are some great cpu coolers out there but air cooled graphics cards can end up sounding like leaf blowers.

a good water cooling system as long as you arn't pushing it too hard doesn't really get much louder when you start to play games like an air cooled one will. So even if they are similar at idle they won't be when you fire up a game.

Don't take my word for it though, if you are buying from scan ring them, speak to a system builder, they will know how their high end air cooled and water cooled systems sound both when idle and under load and will be able to give a a guarenteed answer because obviously the volume depends on what pumps, fans etc they are using.

[Noggin]

http://tv.hexus.net/category.php?cat=43

[Zhaoman]

Yes a reference high-end graphics card will sound like a helicopter preparing to land but that's exactly the problem we are trying to address here. My point was simply that the OP's PC can be made very quiet if we managed to get a near-silent gpu: e.g. one built with vapour-chamber cooling (Vapor-X editions ). So if we managed to get one of them then there would be no need for watercooling and imho watercooling in such a situation would be slightly louder than air-cooling given the extra pump and min. fan speed necessary. Since the OP is not looking to push overclocking to extreme heights, imo a watercooling set up is not necessary to achieve the same noise levels since a quality air-cooled one will be just as quiet while being a lot cheaper.

I was not advocating that a reference high-end gpu is quieter than watercooling... Hope that clears it up.

[Perfectionist]

Hmm, I wonder if the new 5870 vapor-x will be as quiet as the 5850 tho (under full load), don't suppose you know? Scan told me they are chasing up stock btw so should be available soon

[Zhaoman]

Given the track record of the Vapor-X editions, I'd put all bets on the 5870 Vapor-X being pre-overclocked while remaining near-silent (more so since the 5 series are so damn efficient). That's whats happened with every recent Vapor-X release. Expect to pay a premium though

[Zhaoman]

OK with the new Vapor-X being louder than reference there's no debating which is the quietest option: it looks like watercooling is for you after all! It was fate wasn't it