For a gaming rig....

[Kef9]

PCI-e is the way forward but there not going to leave everyone with AGP out in the cold. You can expect at least the next 2 generations of graphics cards to come out on AGP.

As for which shuttle to get, the SN85G4 is superb. Its socket 754 so to get the processor is really cheap. A 3400+ running at 2.4GHz (FX-53 speeds) costs around £120 now. Its a steal. The lack of a dual channel memory controller really does make no difference because its so efficient. There is no room for an upgrade but who cares. By the time the price of the new dual core athlon chips come down to a reasonable level there will be other new technologies and a new socket. My advice with a SFF PC is to get what you can at the time for the best value.

[Merlin4458]

Im going to want this pc to last me 3 years, so kinda want the latest stuff. could u try put together what you would buy for 850 900 quid with my needs for gaming rig. you dont have to but would be cool so see what someone who obviously knows wot their chatting would get

[Kef9]

Just look at my gaming pc mate. Its going to last me 3 years or at least it better had do with a few graphics card upgrades. But by the end of the 3 years its going to be struggling at a poor resolution on most games. If you want to stay upto date in a SFF format then 3 years is a very long time. youd be lucky to last 6 months, you would be miles better with a tower.

To my mind mate if I was to buy one now there would be 3 options. The AGP/PCI-e question in my mind is irrelivent if buying now as future card will be availiable for both.

Option 1 - Socket 754

This option provides the best performance at a really stupidly low price (2.4 GHz on 754 compared to around 1.8-2.0 GHz on 939). However there is no upgrade potential unless you start transplanting in mobile turion chips. If you go for this option check out my rig but go for more memory. I only use that OCZ cos i got it for 30 quid and id rather have 512Mb of fast memory than 1 gig of slower memory at the moment. However that will change in the future and i will swap my memory round with my media pc.

Option 2 - Socket 939

If your going this way then the ST20G5 in my opinion is the way to go. If you were to go this route then i would get a crappiest processor i could find and let that tick me over untill the dual core chips came down to a reasonable level. Depends if you want to wait? 3000+ (1.8ghz) or 3200+ (2.0ghz). This option does provide a future upgrade path. The pricing of the faster processors on this socket is just ridiculous imho.

Option 3 - Intel Dual Core

If you want dual core then i think this is the way to go. The intel dual core chips are going to be far cheaper than the amd ones. Only problem with this option is that you might have to wait a while for the shuttle unit and processors to come out.

Hope this gives you some ideas.

ON the GPU Front ATi I reckon are better for SFF. There smaller and they use alot less power. If you go AGP an X800 series card is perfect and prices are really cheap now, dont know about availability for PCI-e for this model but you should be able to find one. It is as if this card was made for shuttle barebones systems. It draws less power than the older 9800XT. the X850 is not recommended because it a dual slot card in most cases.

[Merlin4458]

4 things.
1:Why would buying a tower mean it will be more future proof?
2:whats the performance difference between an X800 xt and 6800 GT.
3: Why does it matter that the x800 uses less power, as long as it gets the power right?
4: You say get a crappy processor untill the 3700 drop in price yeh? Well when the 3700 drop in price there will be new ones again. So where do i start?

Cheers for the input m8, im learning something new everytime u reply

[beanbandit]

Im going to want this pc to last me 3 years, so kinda want the latest stuff. could u try put together what you would buy for 850 900 quid with my needs for gaming rig. you dont have to but would be cool so see what someone who obviously knows wot their chatting would get

Having just built a Shuttle SN25P i would say go with this option. Its slightly bigger than the St20G but its a better all round design* Has a bigger PSU, plenty of space for air flow, can take 3 Hdd(at the expense of Fdd) and dual slot gfx cards. And its quiet.

The St20G is a nice looking unit but will be limited by its use of single slot gfx cards, unless you want to get involved in some serious modding.

My system is

SN25P
AMD64 3500 Venice
1Gb Crucial Ballistx
Powercolor X800XL
Maxtor Max 10 250Gb

Total price i paid was £1030, this included Win XP (oem), keyboard and Artic Silver 5. If you want to save some money then get the AMD64 3000 Venice, as Hexus.Net's overclocking results are pretty good (55% increase)

At the moment dual core processors are just not worth the extra expense. When the games that use this technology start appearing then the choice of the AMD64 shuttles will have been the right one, as you will only need a Bios update to run them. Intel duals will need new Mb's. In terms of pricing Intel are going to come out more expensive (CustomPC source)

4 things.
1:Why would buying a tower mean it will be more future proof?
2:whats the performance difference between an X800 xt and 6800 GT.
3: Why does it matter that the x800 uses less power, as long as it gets the power right?
4: You say get a crappy processor untill the 3700 drop in price yeh? Well when the 3700 drop in price there will be new ones again. So where do i start?

1. It doesn't. The Shuttle will last you 3 years easy, and you will be able to upgrade the CPU/GFX as and when you want.

2. Not sure on that one, but the X800XL i chose was based on benchmarks that showed it to be very slightly the better option(over the 6800GT). Plus it was £60 cheaper (at the time) than 6800GT.

3. The Shuttle PSU's are famed for there capacity to take almost anything you could throw at it. So yes it doesn't matter if the gfx takes more or less current.

4. You start with your budget, and try to keep to it. If that budget means a AMD64 3000 then no problem. In my case i was recommended the 3000 over everyting else, i chose the 3500 because i could afford it, and for once i was in my budget (bloody hell, still can't believe i managed to do that ) When you do decide on the CPU make sure you get the current core, in the case of AMD thats the Venice & San Diego.

Just to let you know, my system plays HL2@1280x1024 all settings on High with 6X AA. So CS:S should be no problem


*In my opinion

[Kef9]

Okay mate, here we go.

1. If you get a tower it would mean that you could chop and change your motherboard and hence upgrade with no problems. With a SFF you are generally just stuck with what youve got and if you want to upgrade then you have to buy a whole new unit. considering you can get good motherboard for 60 quid and a SFF pc can cost between 200 and 300 quid, if you want to stay upto date I would recommend getting a tower. Best ones in my opinion are the chenbro gaming bomb 2 and the Akasa eclipse 62.

2. An X800XT is faster than both a 6800 GT or ultra in virtually every game apart from doom 3. Basically Its the better card in every respect (faster, quieter, smaller, less power draw, etc) although the nvidia fan boys wont admit it. A good reason why people buy these cards is for SLi but you wont be doing that with a SFF unless you wait for the SLI models to come out. As the card is smaller you get batter airflow around you SFF pc and lower your temps. Compare the size of a x800 to a 6800 and you will see. Check out this article.

http://www.hexus.net/content/reviews...JsX3BhZ2U9MQ==

3. The shuttle units are good and although they have relativly low power outputs they usually handle everything you can throw at them. However you really dont want to be stressing them out to much as this increases case temps etc. A 6800 draws alot more power than an an X800 and that can only be good. People with shuttles dont tend to go with the nvidia cards due to the large cooling solutions, limited space and greater power draw.

4. Regarding the processor it depends on how much you want to spend. If you go down the socket 939 route a dual core athlon chip is going to cost alot of money say £500 quid to start off with so why not buy a cheap processor for around £100 and then when dual cores come down to a reasonable level then get one of those. Most applications and especially games are not designed for dual core at the moment but the majority of them will be in 1 to 2 years time so buying a dual core now for that amount of money really makes no sense to me. Better off with a cheapo processor to keep you going.

Regarding the new processors - yes there will be new ones but they will cost a fortune. It depends on how much you want to spend. You could buy new ones now like an FX-55 for 600 quid if you want but would you for that very marginal performance gain.

If you go the socket 754 route your basically going to get the maximum performance for your money at the moment but there will be no upgrade path.

To put it into perspective the s754 3400+ cost around 120 quid while the 3800+ costs more than double that. The only real difference is the dual channel memory controller which as ive said makes very very little difference. Check out this article and get thinking.

http://www.behardware.com/articles/531/page7.html

Personally I dont belive in upgrade paths anyway because amd and intel chop and change so much.

[Kef9]

just so merlin you know, the X800 XL is different from the X800XT the XT is more powerful in terms of theoretical performance by about 5/4.

The performance from a X800XL and a 6800GT is very similar. However an X800XT is faster than both. An X850 XT is faster than a X800XT but is not suitable for shuttles due to the dual slot colling design.

Just so you know I got my X800XT for £220 a couple of months ago.

[Kef9]

Intel duals will need new Mb's. In terms of pricing Intel are going to come out more expensive (CustomPC source)

If your buying a shuttle from new this is irrelevant, what is relevant is that the intel dual core chips are going to be alot and I mean alot cheaper than AMD's.

Merlin, take alook at the SN25P but I think its too big and nowhere near as good looking as the ST20G5. I also think its more expensive.

[Merlin4458]

Ok im going to go with either SN25p or ST20G5. The problem im having is my flat m8 bought a mesh last year and it came with a 3400 64bit 9800XT and gig ram. I want to blow his pc away as it should do being a year newer. If i saved on the cash and bought a 3000 cpu, (is it the venice of san diego 3000 than can clock 55% more?) will it be faster than his 340064bit. Ive always prefered the look and style of the ati's so will look into the XT if it can fit in my budget. You say the SN25P is too big. I will be taking it to lans 3 times a year, and it cant be anywhere near the size of my MESH case so it does matter bewtween a few inches. Is this the only difference between the 2 shuttles. Do the both do the same job, and performance wise identical?

Loving the knowledge yo uguys are throwing at me, thanks

edit:Just reading on the ST20G5 and it says this. what is this---> Built around ATi RADEON XPRESS core logic

[Kef9]

If you get whay you say you will blow him away in gaming due to your better graphics card but his computer will be faster. To beat his on s939 you will need a 3800+ at a cost of around £250. The s939 3500+ and 3700+ both clocked at 2.2Ghz still wont be enough. That what i mean when I say the s754 3400+ at 2.4Ghz is a bargain. AMD model numbering system is skewed. Look at the link I posted above.

Look at the two shuttles but i would get the ST20G5. It looks miles better, is smaller and lighter - It cant take dual slot graphics cards though.

Regarding the ATI core logic - this shuttle also has an integrated graphics processor that is quite powerful as an added bonus.

[Merlin4458]

but if i get the 3000 venice running at 2.8 like the article says on hexus, then it will be faster along with the cpu and gfx and my ram will be better than mesh ram . Is the X800XL or XT dual slot? cause im looking at either 1 of those... if it requires a dual slot then i will get a SN250

cheers again kef

[Merlin4458]

im really tempted with this 3000 as its so cheap and a 55% increase will put it past 3400 754

[beanbandit]

but if i get the 3000 venice running at 2.8 like the article says on hexus, then it will be faster along with the cpu and gfx and my ram will be better than mesh ram . Is the X800XL or XT dual slot? cause im looking at either 1 of those... if it requires a dual slot then i will get a SN250

cheers again kef

The 800XT/XL's are single slot solutions. Going dual slot will mean getting the SN25P. If you do go the St20G route then i suggest you check its overclocking ability first. No use getting the 3000 Venice and assuming you can overclock. I believe you will also need to update the Bios to get the Venice running on the 20G.

Yes the Shuttle P class chassis are slightly larger than their previous designs but they are still very small compared to a tower system, and the box that Shuttles come in have carry handles so transportation is made very easy.

[Kef9]

I agree, but generally if you plan to overclock then i would get a DFI mobo and tower. Im not a fan of overcloccking really, especially in SFF PC's

Also you would have to buy expensive memory to make the most out of it to achive such an overclock.

[Merlin4458]

hmm ok thanks guys. Its made it clearer but not any easier. As cool as theshuttles look, im getting tempted to go for a a tower system because then i can choose the right mobo for the job then be able to voerclock it to 2.7 or 8. If its going to save me 200 odd quid getting a tower pc then i will jsut have to live with carrying it around. Its not the end of the world..... Wot u guys think. Also wot cards are dual slots? the 6800 ultras only"? U didnt mention how the SN52p will perform with the 3000 venice.

Cheers lads, trying to remember it all :"D

[Kef9]

At the end of the day mate its upto you. Are you happy doing overclocking and dont forget that not all cpus are the same. some 3000+ may oc better than others. If you were to go with a tower I would recommend s754 because for the performance your getting and the money your spending, coupled to the fact that a mobo will cost 60 quid you could throw it away later on when you upgrade. If you were to do this though get a s754 PCI-e mobo so you can take your graphics card with you.