This is why the dole should be stopped.

[Jay]

My neighbours are both on the Dole (Mother and Son)

He has partys every night (I mean loud music, loads of lads and girls), smokes weed, and his mates like to sit on my car and draw on it with marker pen.

He never seems to go to any interviews or do anything and there seems to be no pressure to do so.

I work hard in a good job to buy my house and they destroy my property and live in a house the same as mine for free. It some times makes me wonder why I bother.

[Blitzen]

I actually agree wiht your statement regarding welfare. Its a fantastic idea. Its the implementation thats wrong.
To say that unemployment benefit should be linked to earnings is just plain stupid though.
Take a 25 year old earning £50k for the last 3 years and is then made redundant.
The take a 55 year old factory worker earning £15K a year and he is also made redundant.
By your theory, the 25 year old should get a bigger payout from welfare because he earns more even though the 55year old has paid alot more tax/NI than the 25 year old would have.
Surely you can see what an ill thought out solution that is.


I actually dont read The Sun/The Mail either. Onthe other hand, i do know some VERY high earrning engineers that do read those papers. In your world you may think that reading those things is for stupid people. Believe me, they are far more intelligent than some
The mere fact that you assume yourself to be right by virtue of the fact that you read The Times/Telegraph is ridiculous.
Even though you profess to not be a Tory, your stance that the government is to blame for all this is very narrow minded any very Tory'esque'.

[Mike Fishcake]

Take me, i do a 'skilled' job, getting such a job requires a hudge amount of luck and technical knowledge. Say the company i work for goes under in a big way, i'm paid quite a few times more than the average 2 year out of uni CS student. Would it be right for me to sit on my arse, claiming the doll for 2 years waiting for another gravy train to come along?

Short answer - no!

Or do you think it would be right for me to refuse work for years of my life saying sorry mate, i'm not going to do anything until a highly paid mostly sitting in a rather comfy chair whilst ranting on hexus job comes along?

Longer answer - No, but it's not unreasonable to be given a chance to look for something that can properly utilise your skills. Why 6 months until a cut off point? Why not more? Why not less?

[G4Z]

I catually agree wiht your statement regarding welfare. Its a fantastic idea. Its the implementation thats wrong.
To say that unemployment benefit should be linked to earnings is just plain stupid though.
Take a 25 year old earning £50k for the last 3 years and is then made redundant.
The take a 55 year old factory worker earning £15K a year and he is also made redundant.
By your theory, the 25 year old should get a bigger payout from welfare because he earns more even though the 55year old has paid alot more tax/NI than the 25 year old would have.
Surely you can see what an ill thought out solution that is.

Ok, maybe linked to earnings was not quite the phrase I was looking for, but for example in the Netherlands (might have some details of this wrong) if you are made redundant or lose your job through sickness or whatever they continue to pay you a high percentage of your salary while you look for work. The longer you are out of work the more this payment decreases. To me thats some motivation to get your finger out and look and is a good idea.

I actually dont read The Sun/The Mail either. Onthe other hand, i do know some VERY high earrning engineers that do read those papers. In your world you may think that reading those things is for stupid people. Believe me, they are far more intelligent than some i can think of.
The mere fact that you assume yourself to be right by virtue of the fact that you read The Times/Telegraph is ridiculous.
Even though you profess to not be a Tory, your stance that the government is to blame for all this is very narrow minded any very Tory'esque'.
Its just easier for some to blame the government, whoever it is at that time, for all the worlds ills. That way no thought is required as to the real problem.

I'm going to shock you here... people who read the Sun and the daily mail (and take it seriously) are.... stupid. There I said it, and I mean it. I don't in fact read any papers, I get my news from many online sources. While the paper you read does not define your intelligence per se it is a good indicator of your ability to filter information and identify bias. The Sun and the Mail are quite blatantly right wing, fascist publications and if you can't identify that bias and you take a story about 'money grubbing immigrants' seriously then you are an idiot.

I don't blame the government for everything, why in my last post I was bemoaning jobless wasters ruining werlfare so I do have other people to blame. Oh and of course the people that voted them in, and of course the media conglomerates that helped them get in. The government has more power to fix things in our society (or indeed make them worse) so therefore they should shoulder the majority of the blame even if nobody will take any actual responsibility.

Oh and for the last time, I am not a Tory.

A Tory stance on here would probably be much the same as a Nu-Labour one as in they would simply try and blame immigrants for everything on the one hand while relying on them to prop up public services with the other.

[TheAnimus]

I actually agree wiht your statement regarding welfare. Its a fantastic idea. Its the implementation thats wrong.
To say that unemployment benefit should be linked to earnings is just plain stupid though.
Take a 25 year old earning £50k for the last 3 years and is then made redundant.
The take a 55 year old factory worker earning £15K a year and he is also made redundant.
By your theory, the 25 year old should get a bigger payout from welfare because he earns more even though the 55year old has paid alot more tax/NI than the 25 year old would have.
Surely you can see what an ill thought out solution that is.

One person will be paying 3.3~ times as much NI into the kitty per year, should they get three times back? Odds are they will be acustom to the extra money.

Part of me thinks that you should simply abolish benefit, and let people choose, and decide how much they want to pay. Under paid young people with few dependants, can choose less out of work insurance and instead save the money into a pension. Those who have kids/mortgage can be more responsible.

Instead, you've got something thats rather unfair to anyone whos living costs are higher than the dole, your forced to have savings yourself, while been taxed higher.

I suppose what i'm getting at is that the dole is a place of last resort for me, and most people in my posistion. To me it might as well be a workhouse as much as it should be £50 a week. It would simply take too long to get housing benefit and all the other finacnial support i'd need. The only people who having it the way it is benefits are those on 5k a year who might find themself out of work. And those who have no intention to work.

Which rases the question, how do you punish those who abuse the system, verses thouse who are earning so little, its almost forgiveable for them to have no savings, no bank thats willing to give them an overdraft to tide them over.

I actually dont read The Sun/The Mail either. Onthe other hand, i do know some VERY high earrning engineers that do read those papers. In your world you may think that reading those things is for stupid people. Believe me, they are far more intelligent than some
The mere fact that you assume yourself to be right by virtue of the fact that you read The Times/Telegraph is ridiculous.
Even though you profess to not be a Tory, your stance that the government is to blame for all this is very narrow minded any very Tory'esque'.

Its perfectly fine to generalise, the vast majority of sun readers will have an IQ below that of the times readers.

[Lucio]

There's a flip side to this arguement that no one seems to have touched on. Should there be a standardised quality of life that everyone should have?

For example, Person A is unemployed, he gets £500 a month to live on, and another £300 to rent a single room. Person B works 40 hours a week, and gets only £600. Person B, can't afford to rent a single room so lives at home with their parents

Should she get a topup so she gets the same amount of money as Person A?
Should payouts to Person B be reduced, so they can't afford to rent and have to live at home with their parents?


A welfare system is an incredibly complex thing. I don't think we could cover all the ideas and I definately don't agree with the people who'se view runs to "Get rid of all the spongers", because I don't think you can accurately judge a person's life on the fact they're unemployeed.

You may well have individual cases that you know personally that are a problem, my answer to this would be to call the Benefits Office and report them. If they're doing drugs and acting criminally, call the Police. If all else fails, write to your MP and your newspaper.

[shelley bda]

Oh yeah, one other thing I want to add.

Can any of you that are asserting that immigrants are claiming benefits supply some evidence for that please, as the last I heard they were not entitled to anything.

I have a friend who works in the local Government, sorting out benefits for immigrants, as well as getting houses fully decorated, carpeted and furnished ( yup, and the first thing the Iraqis do is skip the carpets ) they are allowed to claim child benefit for kids not even living in this country! that's 25million a year... benefit doesn't have to be monetry, are they not also entitled to use our NHS system? free healthcare and dental treatment? free school meals, milk token etc etc?

As for doleys, I heard the Chancellor say in todays budget that there will be a huge shake up of the benefits system and of the way housing and council tax benefit will be paid, People who can and should work will be encouraged to do so.

[Blitzen]

One person will be paying 3.3~ times as much NI into the kitty per year, should they get three times back? Odds are they will be acustom to the extra money.

Part of me thinks that you should simply abolish benefit, and let people choose, and decide how much they want to pay. Under paid young people with few dependants, can choose less out of work insurance and instead save the money into a pension. Those who have kids/mortgage can be more responsible.

Instead, you've got something thats rather unfair to anyone whos living costs are higher than the dole, your forced to have savings yourself, while been taxed higher.

I suppose what i'm getting at is that the dole is a place of last resort for me, and most people in my posistion. To me it might as well be a workhouse as much as it should be £50 a week. It would simply take too long to get housing benefit and all the other finacnial support i'd need. The only people who having it the way it is benefits are those on 5k a year who might find themself out of work. And those who have no intention to work.

Which rases the question, how do you punish those who abuse the system, verses thouse who are earning so little, its almost forgiveable for them to have no savings, no bank thats willing to give them an overdraft to tide them over.

Its perfectly fine to generalise, the vast majority of sun readers will have an IQ below that of the times readers.

Although some of your points are interesting, and i sincerely mean that, you do seem to have led a priviledged life which totally blinkers your view to the rest of normal society.
Maybe if you hadn't you would see the real world around you rather than some elite utopia you think should exist.

I also get the feeling you aren't quite as 'in touch' or intelligent as you think you are.

[G4Z]

I have a friend who works in the local Government, sorting out benefits for immigrants, as well as getting houses fully decorated, carpeted and furnished ( yup, and the first thing the Iraqis do is skip the carpets ) they are allowed to claim child benefit for kids not even living in this country! that's 25million a year... benefit doesn't have to be monetry, are they not also entitled to use our NHS system? free healthcare and dental treatment? free school meals, milk token etc etc?

As for doleys, I heard the Chancellor say in todays budget that there will be a huge shake up of the benefits system and of the way housing and council tax benefit will be paid, People who can and should work will be encouraged to do so.

Shelly, i don't doubt you honesty but got a link?

Also sounds like you are talking about asylum seekers here, not legal EU immigrants.

[shelley bda]

Shelly, i don't doubt you honesty but got a link?

Also sounds like you are talking about asylum seekers here, not legal EU immigrants.

No sorry, I don't have a link, but i've known this Person for a long time... immigrants were definately mentioned, though Red Wine was involved not much.... just a little lol

[pp05]

Some thoughts..

Immigration - Britain simply needs immigrants. Yes maybe we can look to temporarily at halting the numbers considering the influx of recent years but overall they make a positive long-term contribution to our country. As for sending money back home - they earned it, they can spend it how they want. If anything, sending money back to loved ones will help fight poverty in the world due to inequality of wealth in the world.

Red tape. We need less of it, over-regulation has meant people have become reliant on the government for everything. They are zapping what little initiative is left to take responsiblilty of ones life by not allowing people the freedom to better themselves. Instead regulating everything.

Not every job out there is full-time or even offers a future. We need a system to reflect this. I don't actually know [if anyone can shed some light] how long it takes for people to make a claim and the first payment to reach them in a time of need. But if it's more than month I don't blame people for refusing to work in these low jobs, knowing they have to go through all the red tape from start to get what they're entitled to - expecially if they have children.

Welfare system is complex, there is no easy solution to this, just one that you can tinker that supports the long-term vision.

Lastly is it me or does anyone else think the 5k personal allowance before being taxed is pittance?

[TheAnimus]

Although some of your points are interesting, and i sincerely mean that, you do seem to have led a priviledged life which totally blinkers your view to the rest of normal society.
Maybe if you hadn't you would see the real world around you rather than some elite utopia you think should exist.

I also get the feeling you aren't quite as 'in touch' or intelligent as you think you are.

a half compliment sandwich.

My life hasnt been that priviledged i'm affriad, i had net access from an early age, but thats about it. I didn't even have a 'full' education.

[G4Z]

Seems immigrants from within the EU can claim some benefits :Welfare Rights Bulletin 186: Public funds, benefits and tax credits so I have to stand corrected on that one.

However, given the very small amount you could potentially claima and the quality of life you would end up leading I will need some convincing that EU immigrants really are sitting on the dole rather than working and sending money home.

[ajones]

I agree that Britain needs immigrants... because we are too bloody lazy to get off our own a***s and do the basic jobs. If someone from Europe is willing to clean toilets for a living and pay taxes to allow Brittoo lazy to work to claim dole... Why not?

I was on beneits for a couple of years after uni and took a pay cut when I started work! Since then I've been fortunate enough to have a consitent line of work (mobile Telecoms). It would be nice to feel that if everything goes tits-up that I'll be looked after by the State... whilst I seek to gain further employment... not sit on my arse and drink bicardi breezers or whatever it is.

Bottom line, if you are not willing to work, why should my hard-earned tax be spent in supporting you? Sometimes I feel like my grand father, with no teeth and a cloth cap preaching "When I worked down pit with nowt but my britches to claw out the coal..."