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About LinkBacksWell, I don't want to talk much about cops with guns as it is not the top of the thread. However, I think we're getting to a point where a compulsory national ID card is a good idea.Originally Posted by DaBeeeenster
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Well, I don't want to talk much about cops with guns as it is not the top of the thread. However, I think we're getting to a point where a compulsory national ID card is a good idea.
Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly. - Batman costume warning label (Rolfe, John & Troob, Peter, Monkey Business (Swinging Through the Wall Street Jungle), 2000)
One of the major problems with all this is that we do not have a constitution. There's no safeguard against where this could lead. We have the politicians word, but that does not count for a lot AFAIAC.
"All our beliefs are being challenged now, and rightfully so, they're stupid." - Bill Hicks
exactly.
theres no concrete proof that these cards are a benefit to us, if there was a country with them that was a lot safer than the UK, then i'd be all for it. not that im against it as such, just paying for it is silly. although, if its "free" watch the amount of tax and NI i pay go up ;/
There certainly are benefits. I'm not saying that. I just think that the negatives easily outweigh them.
WE will pay for it. Please would people stop implying that some alien race are going to pay for it. The British people will pay for it. That's a given.
"All our beliefs are being challenged now, and rightfully so, they're stupid." - Bill Hicks
Oh and remember the screen in every room that was two way in 1984, well what are you reading this on now and what powers do the government have to eavesdrop on all your electronic comms? Think Carnivore in the USA and that eavesdropping centre in the UK.
The Cow by Ogden Nash
The cow is of the bovine ilk;
One end is moo, the other, milk.
"All our beliefs are being challenged now, and rightfully so, they're stupid." - Bill Hicks
Just emailed them asking for an invite to the meeting.
Rich :¬)
Extract of my own thoughts on the subject.On the surface, the motivation behind a national ID card scheme is to improve the security of this country. However, once we look further, it is about personal responsibility and about changing the way government agencies work individually and how they interact with each other. It is about change on a personal level, on a social level and at the government level. If you think assuming more personal responsibility for oneself is not a good thing, then the ID card is not for you. If you think improving government efficiency is not a good thing, the ID card is a mistake for the country. If you think any of these is a good idea, you should embrace a compulsory national ID card.
Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly. - Batman costume warning label (Rolfe, John & Troob, Peter, Monkey Business (Swinging Through the Wall Street Jungle), 2000)
You've already posted that link in this thread once. Why just post it again?
Benefits - 1) Under 18 year olds (without savvy) won't be able to buy drink from an off licence
2) Any off licence without a direct link to the Central Server won't be able to refuse to sell drink to a Savvy 15 YO...
And David Blunket won't be involved (he can't be retina ID'd of course) - same guy that got 158,000 AGAINST ID's and 60 in favour, through email, but chose to call them "1 vote against - 60 in favour..." Amazing how blind you can be if you really try.......
1. What has that got to do with ID cards? Off licenses already require ID cards.
2. How? How is that going to help at all? Of course they can still sell alcohol to people under age.
KBeee; please do not make snide remarks about people's disabilities. You may dislike David Blunkett, and you would have good reason in certain circumstances, but I will not tolerate that sort of attitude here. Sorry.
"All our beliefs are being challenged now, and rightfully so, they're stupid." - Bill Hicks
Surely if they make ID cards obligatory, they can't charge for them?
I heard that they were putting up the price of passports to pay for them.
Just because the bloke's blind, doesn't mean he hasn't got a retina to scan.
Part of the study is to decide what should be done where there is a lack of 'selected body part'
Maybe we'll see an increase in the number of fingerless, blind (with glass eyes) light fingered thieves
Aside from outside force, the only thing any State fears, is its own population 'cos if it pushes them far enough, the State gets changed along with all the individuals living off the State (meaning those who are part of the State apparatus).
When systems and procedures become available that permit a State to monitor its own population, en masse, that State will implement those procedures as quickly as possible as it secures its own safety. When that State is a democracy, it first has to persuade and cajole its population into putting the handcuffs on themselves. It does this by enacting laws like the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act and by reduction of legal rights and obligations. Terrorism is a God given gift for that State as it scares the children (general population) with tales of the Boogy man.
All of the acts already passed, and proposed, will be most effective when used against the general population and no State ever granted itself a power that it didn't use.
This wouldn't be so much of a problem if there were safeguards in the system to prevent abuse - but there are none. Only Foreign and Home Secretarys saying "trust us, we wouldn't do that". Indeed, those individuals may mean it, but their successors or their successors successors won't.
I promise you, within Five years, there will be "soundings" made about the right of the government in power, to suspend elections in a time of national trouble, said definition to be decided by that same government in power. It is coming, and when it does, Dictatorship here we come.
To add my opinion to the fray.....i think the ID cards will be a bit of a waste of money.
1) The security issue:
a) How are they going to gaurentee that people making the cards cant be bribed to make fake cards for terrorists?
b) How can the security of the system be garanteed, we have seen too many cock ups by this government to believe they have the ability to implement a system this serious
c) Anything connected to a network can be l33t hax0red, from the film swordfish "anything can be hacked, its just a matter of time and computer power" (or something to that effect)
2) How does it stop terrorism?
a) I really can see anyway that it will stop terrorism. They have a huge amount of power and money, if they want something im sure they can get it.
b) I think terrorism, as a word, is far over used. They seem to be tacking it onto anything to make it sound far more important as everyone is aware of the increased danger of terrorism....but we had the IRA trying to kill prime ministers not so long ago, did we have ID cards then!?
3) Does it stop other crime?
a) I dont see how it will stop other crime, even if they have a crimial record already. I watched a program on teh BBC, where a reporter managed to get a fake passport for David Blunkett, then get a real one, a birth certificate, a driving license, and credit cards all in his name and address. How will this change anything? yeah it will have more details, but fake cars can be made up with the right technology.
4) Implementation.
a) The only sucess that the government has had in this area is it cogestion charge in London, albeit for a few glicthes a few days early (with people being charged.) In all other government funded plans the rubbishrubbishrubbishrubbish has hit the fan, a prime example is the Millenimum projects.
a) Dome - waste of money
b) 2000 Fireworks - didnt go off on time (all along the Thames)
c) A 2000 project in Portsmouth still isnt finished
d) General poor implementation of ideas - related to too
many peolpe working things.
5) Summary
a) This could be a good idea if implement correctly by the right government.
b) I dont trust this government too many bad things have happened in the past few years for me to put total faith in them
c) I do think that it would be beneficial to have DNA samples on a database, but on ID cards, so only the services can get them. e.g. (1) there is rape, seaman is found, cross reference it with teh database you have your man. (2) dead business man found in a loche in scotland, no ID, DNA cross-reference, there you go. I think this would benefit the population more than ID cards.
FINISHED
One final point, peadophiles/chidl sex people should be killed in my opinion....its just wrong.
Will
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havent read the whole thread, nor do I intend to..
Security:
the data should be stored on the card, only, not on any centralised network.
The data should have a unique hash, which is then stored on a centralised network (but not accessable to users etc...) and each time the cards are used, the hash can be sent to the centralised database to check that nothing has been modified. This, or something remotely similar, done properly, would prevent fakes from being possible.
The hash would not have to be from all the data, there could be areas of data that are almost irrelavant for ID purposes, allowing users/shops to store stuff on it...
It looks like they will be much less secure than this, infact you could probhably use a home made reader/writer to edit the data, if stored on the card, or hack several centralised computers, and get the same result.
The cards could still probably be copied, but another method could be used to prevent this, for example if the cards internally count everytime they are used, and send this number off to the database, one could assume that a real card, and its copy, wil not have the same number forever. If the real one was used first, the copy is then one behind, and when thats used, it would alert the system that it has been copyed, and could then be disabled and a new card sent out... Thats just a simple method, theres probably more reliable better ones...
Stopping terrorism:
it will do nothing more than a passport can now, assming the security of it is good, which I doubt, it will make passports almost impossible to forge.
Other crime:
With the right tools, it would be quite easy to make fake cars. You need a team of engineers to reverse engineer all the parts, then you just need the machines to make them, this would cost a lot but assuming you intend on mass producing them, it would be easy to break even quite quickly. Fake cars are not hard, just complex, ID cards however could be made impossible to fake with the right security built in - Assuming the machines to read the cards can check the integrity of the card against a hash of the card. This would be similar as if they made a database of everyones DNA sample, anyone whos DNA sample doesnt match one on the database, has a faked/modified ID card.
Your final point - What if they are wrongly accused? for example the mickael (sp?) jackson thing (which I dont know anything about, so might be a very bad example if they have found him guilty or whatever)
Dictatorship could never happen in the UK - it only works when based on loyalty, if it happened in the UK I can guess most people would not want to be loyal - the dictator would not last very long.
Overall I think ID cards would be good if done properly. "done properly" being something that the average person would not understand, and would not care about, leading to the goverment cutting corners, and making it worse or unusable.
Last edited by SilentDeath; 05-05-2004 at 03:36 AM.
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