UK ID Cards - for or against?

[Dav0s]

is 1984 the big brother style book? somebody is watching you sorta thing?

[Matt1eD]

is 1984 the big brother style book? somebody is watching you sorta thing?

indeedy

iirc it was the first reference to the term 'Big Brother' for an authoritarian regime

[Big RICHARD]

is 1984 the big brother style book? somebody is watching you sorta thing?

I believe George Orwell's 1984 coined the phrase 'Big Brother' and that is where the idea for the (crap) TV series 'Big Brother' came from. I also think that the TV series started as an experiment to clarify Orwell's thoughts on what the world was becoming and the effect of constant surveillance upon individuals and groups was. It did turn, in the end, in to a popularity show, as the surveillance comes to an end, does not deal directly with thought control and guarantees fame (or, at least, infamy) for the 'contestants' as they are seen now.

[dannyboy83]

I'm not against this idea at all. Most of our information is held on databases anyway: Medical records, passport details, driving lincense details (points, etc), TV licence or not, bank details, date and place of birth... it's all pretty much there. and the police have details of your care and in some cases, your DNA.

I may sound like a broken record but... I have nothing to hide so I'm not against it. The only thing I am opposed to is if it costs a sh!tload.


Maybe one day it'll be like Minority Report, and there'll be retina scans wherever you go - now that WOULD be a bit scary.

[RVF500]

Wait til you turn up at hospital without your ID card and can't get treatment. Or can't get other essential services because you've lost it and are waiting for a replacement. Not to mention the cost of the replacement.

[Big RICHARD]

I'm not against this idea at all. Most of our information is held on databases anyway: Medical records, passport details, driving lincense details (points, etc), TV licence or not, bank details, date and place of birth... it's all pretty much there. and the police have details of your care and in some cases, your DNA.

I may sound like a broken record but... I have nothing to hide so I'm not against it. The only thing I am opposed to is if it costs a sh!tload.


Maybe one day it'll be like Minority Report, and there'll be retina scans wherever you go - now that WOULD be a bit scary.

But to steal my identity from all those databases requires a LOT of cracking. It is harder to crack 10 databases than it is 1. Someone would have to want to steal MY identity uniquely to do steal any identity successfully. With a centralised database these people can steal my identity in one database crack and I would be put at increased risk of identity theft.

Apologies if that was hard to read!

[dannyboy83]

NAh I understand Big RICHARD, and your point makes sense. But if people will be able to steal a batch of identities from a central database, they can already steal a batch from one of the many databases presently out there...

Therefore my theory is that one well guarded/protected database is better than 10 not so well protected.

Wait til you turn up at hospital without your ID card and can't get treatment. Or can't get other essential services because you've lost it and are waiting for a replacement. Not to mention the cost of the replacement.

That is no different to me losing my driving licence and not being allowed to get into clubs, get loans, etc, because they only accept photographic IDs. Not to mention it being the same as losing your passport, where you can't get a new one in time to go on holiday. Hopsitalsare hardly gonna turn you away if you have life-threatening injuries are they?

[RVF500]

I think being turned away from an essential service is very different from being turned away from a club. It has already been stated that you wil need the id to get treatment. And yes, I wouldn't put it past the beaurocrats that run the hospitals to turn you away. A good excuse to save money.

You also make a valid point about loans. Though probably not how you inteded to. Companies may well insist on your id information before giving out loans. Same as insurance companies if you go for a payout. Anyone who has owned a car will know how reluctant insurance companies are at parting with money once they have it off of you. Try getting a service in the US without a social security number.

You can't go abroad if you lose your passport because the carrier won't carry you and the far end destination won't let you in. That is international policy and not domestic. It will not restrict you at home if you lose your passport. Besides in emergency cases you can get a passport very quickly. If you are abroad you can get a replacement from consular services. Quickly too.

[dannyboy83]

I think being turned away from an essential service is very different from being turned away from a club. It has already been stated that you wil need the id to get treatment. And yes, I wouldn't put it past the beaurocrats that run the hospitals to turn you away. A good excuse to save money.

But I think there is a difference between needing ID for treatment, and needing ID for life saving operations, for example, folloing a car accident, or stabbing.

I understand your point of view though.

And as you said, without a social security number in the US, you wouldn't get a service. So it'll be the same here with ID cards. Maybe, and just maybe, it'll cut down on all the benefit fraud.

[Rave]

But I think there is a difference between needing ID for treatment, and needing ID for life saving operations, for example, folloing a car accident, or stabbing.

Right- so say you get diagnosed with cancer, but they refuse to start treatment for a month because someone nicked your wallet at gunpoint and you have to wait a month for a replacement card. Do you think that would be a good system?

Medical records, passport details, driving lincense details (points, etc), TV licence or not, bank details, date and place of birth... it's all pretty much there. and the police have details of your care and in some cases, your DNA.

Yes, but: passports, driving licences, TV licences, bank accounts, etc. all have one thing in common: they're not compulsory. There is no obligation to drive, go abroad, watch TV, or keep your money in the bank. There's no obligation to have hospital treatment for that matter, although most people will at some point. In any case, the Central ID database is not going to replace all these other databases, it's just going to be one more in the ever growing list- however, if this one gets your details wrong, it's your job to get it corrected else you'll face a £2000 fine. If the bank (say) get my details wrong- big deal, someone else gets my junk mail.

The police can only keep your DNA if you're charged with a crime- although if you're released without charge after being arrested you have to apply to have your DVN removed from the database.

[Big RICHARD]

NAh I understand Big RICHARD, and your point makes sense. But if people will be able to steal a batch of identities from a central database, they can already steal a batch from one of the many databases presently out there...

Therefore my theory is that one well guarded/protected database is better than 10 not so well protected.

But once they have managed to break in ot the database they have EVERYTHING on me, not JUST my driving licence number OR national insurance number. They have enough to rob me of my 'life'.

[dannyboy83]

OK fair points.

and you have to wait a month for a replacement card

But Rave is presuming that the system will be so bad that it will take 4 weeks for a new card. It might not...

[nichomach]

And oinkers might develop advanced aerobatic skills...
My mum works for the CSA, and has seen first hand exactly how bad the systems in use there are. Example; they are supposed to record every contact in a "notes" section, which they do. Problem: Save the details, exit the record, go back in, and all the details you just put in the record are...gone. Just gone. This is something that's happened to Mum quite a lot and to a lot of her colleagues. It's the agency that gets it in the neck, but the systems are just not up to snuff. Basically, it's the old story - quote a low price to get the job, but then make any additionals a "variation" and chargeable at a honking markup.

Anyone who trusts the data integrity of any system like the one proposed, trusts that it'll come in anywhere NEAR the government's estimates, and trusts that they won't get ****ed over by incorrect or missing records needs their heads examined. Leaving aside my ethical objections to such a fundamental shift in the balance between individual and state, it's a recipe for an utter catastrophe, however much lipstick they apply to the pig.

[RVF500]

Have you ever known governments to do ANYTHING efficiently. Other than line their own pockets of course.

I'm still trying to figure out how a ferry steward can end up with 2 jags and 4 homes. Other than by getting high up in the Labour party.

[RVF500]

Nicho........It's not a bug.....it's a feature

[nichomach]

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