Russia to build new super army! Ukraine, Human Rights and WW3

[j1979]

I would agree that Russia has no legitimate right to be in Ukraine, but then large powers don’t always do what’s right when what’s ‘right’ conflicts with their own interests. And that’s what I meant when I said Putin is doing what any leader would do in his situation – he’s advancing his own interests. If America, or Britain, thought for one minute that it would be in their own best interests, economically and politically, to side with Russia, do you think they wouldn’t? As for a legitimate reason for the West to put troops in Ukraine, that would only really apply if it could be proven that that it was intentionally shot down whilst knowing it was a passenger jet, i.e. an intentional attack on those civilians, otherwise it’s a pretty flimsy pretence. And regardless, I’m afraid I would bet that a British public, including me, tired of the Iraq and Afghanistan legacy, are going to need more than that if we are to support actual military involvement of UK troops. (see why recent history is not so irrelevant now?)

As you have already agreed they have no legitimate right to be in Ukraine. (NO threats, NO dead Russians, NO unfulfilled treaties).

So tell me which of the world leaders would invade an neighboring ally under those circumstances. I will give you a clue. You need to go back to 1939.

As for why Russia are involved in Ukraine, I think it’s a pretty safe conclusion to suggest that Putin would like parts of the old Soviet Union back within the Republic, and is testing the waters to see how far he can go. Couple that with the fact that the areas he has gone into have a majority of ethnic Russians, and there’s his rationale, or legitimacy, as he would see it.

What areas are majority ethnic Russians? Crimea is 54% and Donetsk is around 30%. It was higher a decade ago, and may start to increase again. But Ethnic Russians are a minority in all areas of Ukraine apart from Crimea.



Don't be confused with Russian speakers and Ethnic Russians.

As he did with the Chechens, the Georgians, he will make sure the percentage of Russians increase.

Just a quick post, but I think that ethnicity should not (emphasising both "should" and "not") be used to establish country borders. And on the flip side, citizens of any ethnicity of a given country should be given equal rights. If you feel that you have more in common with people from another country, then move there. The only exception would be if the government oppress and discriminates it's own citizens on basis of ethnicity.

100% agree.

[peterb]

(And BTW, Vbulletin has excellent facilities for multiple quoting posts or editing existing posts - there is no requirement to answer each post with an individual post. It makes the thread very unwieldy, especially with large signature blocks.)

J1979 - what part of that did you miss - I must have merged a dozen consecutive posts of yours today. Please answer multiple topics in one posts - it makes the thread easier to read for everyone - especially when you have a large signature block.

[j1979]

J1979 - what part of that did you miss - I must have merged a dozen consecutive posts of yours today. Please answer multiple topics in one posts - it makes the thread easier to read for everyone - especially when you have a large signature block.

Yer sorry it seems I overlooked it as it blended slightly with your signature. Regardless, however my browser configuration blocks scripts by default, after a number of online cyber "incidents".

I could try and merge them manually in future.

I see another flight has gone down today. There was one yesterday too. Not blaming the Russians, but until they prove otherwise...

Seriously RIP to the victims.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/algeria-pa...8.html#RflbFI2

[j1979]

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The Ukrainians have just announced they have taken the town of Lysychanska just east of Sloviansk.


The US Mission to the OSCE has just filed a statement.
As delivered by Ambassador Daniel B. Baer to the Permanent Council
Vienna, July 24, 2014
http://osce.usmission.gov/jul_24_14_ukraine.html


One week ago, we all received the devastating news of the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17. As victims’ loved ones continue to mourn, we are learning more about the many lives that were lost—men, women, children, and infants who were killed senselessly as they were heading on vacation, returning home from their studies abroad, conducting research, visiting family and friends, or doing their jobs as the flight crew. Our thoughts and prayers are with the families around the world who are experiencing this unimaginable grief.

Mr. Chairperson, as the world mourns this horrific loss, our immediate focus is on recovering those who were lost, investigating the facts, and bringing those responsible to justice. As we have previously stated, the victims of this tragedy and their families deserve a credible international investigation that reveals the truth about what happened. We understand that international investigators are on the ground in Ukraine attempting to conduct a full, unimpeded and transparent investigation. Yet, we have been horrified by reports of looting, evidence tampering, and the failure to transport the remains of all victims to Kharkiv and into Dutch custody. This kind of behavior has no place in the community of nations and is an insult to the memory of the victims. We call for investigators to have full and unfettered access to the crash site, and for the crash site to be properly cordoned off and preserved.

Mr. Chairperson, allow me to highlight what we know at this point:

All evidence we have suggests that Flight MH17 was likely downed by a SA-11 surface-to-air missile from separatist-controlled territory in eastern Ukraine.
Over the past month, we have detected an increasing amount of heavy weaponry crossing the border from Russia into Ukraine. This has not changed since Flight MH17 was downed. Last weekend, Russia sent a convoy of military equipment to the separatists of up to 150 vehicles that included tanks, armored personnel carriers, artillery, and multiple rocket launchers.
Russia-backed separatist fighters have demonstrated proficiency with surface-to-air missile systems and have downed more than a dozen aircraft over the past few months, including two large transport aircraft. On Wednesday July 23, there were reports of two more downed Ukrainian fighter jets near the Russian border.
At the time that MH17 dropped out of contact, we detected a surface-to-air missile (SAM) launch from a separatist-controlled area in southeastern Ukraine. We have reason to believe this missile was an SA-11.
Intercepts of separatist communications posted on YouTube by the Ukrainian government indicate the separatists were in possession of an SA-11 system as early as July 14th. In the intercepts, the separatists made repeated references to having and repositioning Buk (SA-11) systems.
Social media postings on July 17, show an SA-11 system traveling through the separatist-controlled towns of Torez and Snizhne, near the crash site and assessed location of the SAM launch. From this location, the SA-11 has the range and altitude capability to have shot down flight MH17.
Shortly after the crash, separatists – including the self-proclaimed “Defense Minister” of the group calling itself the Donetsk People’s Republic, Igor Strelkov, a Russian citizen – claimed responsibility for shooting down a military transport plane on social media.
In an intercepted conversation that has been widely posted on the Internet, a known-separatist leader tells another person that a separatist faction downed an aircraft. When it became evident that the plane was a civilian airliner, separatists deleted social media posts boasting about shooting down a plane and possessing a Buk (SA-11) system.
Video posted on social media shows a SA-11 on a transporter traveling through the Krasnodon and back to Russia. The video indicated the system was missing at least one missile, suggesting it had conducted a launch.

Mr. Chairperson, Russia has direct, substantial influence over the separatists. Russia has urged them on. Russia has trained them. Russia has given them military equipment and weapons, including anti-aircraft weapons. Russia has given them cash. Key separatist leaders are Russian citizens. The burden is on Russia to insist that these separatists stop tampering with the evidence, grant investigators full and unimpeded access to the crash site, and allow for the site to be properly cordoned off and preserved. Time is of the essence. We call on Russia to allow the world to find answers to what happened and to allow the families to lay their loved ones to rest with dignity. In addition, should Russia continue backing these violent separatists and continue violating Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity by occupying Crimea, Russia will further isolate itself from the international community. We remind the Permanent Council that we do not and will not recognize Russia’s attempted annexation of Crimea.

In closing I’d like to say that in the last few days there has been extensive media coverage of artillery fire coming from Russian territory into Ukraine. We heard the report today from the distinguished Ukrainian ambassador. There was also a social media posting with a Russian soldier bragging about how he had been “pounding Ukrainians all night” that was later taken down, presumably when it was realized that it would be incriminating.

Nothing we have seen suggests any reason to doubt that there is artillery fire coming from the Russian Federation’s territory into Ukraine.

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EDIT
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Reports on twitter claim Russia is moving TOCHKA missiles (they can carry nuke warheads apparently) close to the boarder with Ukraine. If true, then...God help us all!



Getting some tweets in from different sources, that there is defiantly fire coming in from over the Russian boarder. Whether true or not is a different story, but what it does do is provide Putin with a pretext to invade, should the Ukrainians fire back. These could be some retreating separatists or they could be new separatists, or it could be Russian troops.

Of course it could just be an isolated incident.

[Top_gun]

I take your point, but you asked about differences. One difference was that Russia invaded Afghanistan, and the US helped Afghans fight back. In Ukraine, Russia effectively invsded in Crimea, though not in the overt way they did in Afghanistan, and annexed a chunk of a country in flat contradiction to the "guarantee" Putin, personally, had signed only a few years earlier that he would not do so. So, we know he's a liar, and that his written promises are worthless.

Maybe Putin ought to join the LibDems?

I'm not, emphatically NOT saying that the US are angels, or don't do things for their own vested interest (who does, in nation states?), or that I ageee with or support all US involvements around the world.

But you asked for differences between those two specific scenarios. I outlined a couple.

It's not whether I missed or didn't miss your point, or whether I agree with it or not, it's simply a couple of differences.

Apologies if you thought I had asked for the differences. I didn't and what you wrote hasn't change my view at all.

Not sure if the Russians are the villains. They don't view the new government of Ukraine as legitimate. The Russians felt that Crimea was always part of them and more importantly the Crimean people wanted to be part of Russia. On the eastern side of Ukraine felt their interests ties with Russia while on the western side are looking to forge closer links with EU. It seems the best solution is to split the country up. However, it may not be that simple when you factor in the oil wells on the eastern side of Ukraine.

My own personal view, it should be the people of Ukraine to decide their destiny. Not for the Russians or the Western states to impose their will.

[wasabi]

My own personal view, it should be the people of Ukraine to decide their destiny. Not for the Russians or the Western states to impose their will.

Nice in theory. Meanwhile Russia is actively arming a minority in breach of a treaty, and someone from that minority has just murdered a bunch of civilians. Armchair political theory is nice, what happens if the other side is a nuclear superpower who isn't playing by the same nice rules?

[Saracen]

Apologies if you thought I had asked for the differences. I didn't and what you wrote hasn't change my view at all.

Not sure if the Russians are the villains. They don't view the new government of Ukraine as legitimate. The Russians felt that Crimea was always part of them and more importantly the Crimean people wanted to be part of Russia. On the eastern side of Ukraine felt their interests ties with Russia while on the western side are looking to forge closer links with EU. It seems the best solution is to split the country up. However, it may not be that simple when you factor in the oil wells on the eastern side of Ukraine.

My own personal view, it should be the people of Ukraine to decide their destiny. Not for the Russians or the Western states to impose their will.

Actually, you did. I quoted it directly in my reply. But here it is again, from post #84, the bit in bold.

I fail to see the rationale on taking military action against the separatists and the Russians. How is the separatists/Russian actions any different to when the CIA interfered in the Afghan/Russian conflict during the 1980s?

As for the second part of the post I'm replying to here, it wasn't what I was commenting on, and of course you're entitled to your view, but I certainly do see the Russians as the villians of this. Ukraine is a sovereign country, recognised by Russia and the international community, and Russia only a few years back guaranteed the integrity of Ukraine's borders .... and then did exactly what it promised not to do. Which just goes to demonstrate what Putin's word, or Russia's while he's running it, is worth. He'll abide by his word only when it suits him. The rest of the time, it's about as useful as used bog-roll.

Of course, you're still entitled to your opinion, but that is mine. Russia planned and stoked up this mess, and not for the first time. The seizing of Crimea was as blatant a land-grab of another sovereign country's land as I can think of, and the downing of this plane has followed from Russia's interference and provocation of so-called separatists. He may not have given the order to fire, and may well regret the downing of this aircraft, but in my opinion he's as guilty as hell of it, because the entire conflict is his plan.

Ultimately, there's only one way to handle bullies when they get out of hand, and that's to thump them firmly on the nose. Sadly, the bunch of whores we have running Western countries are showing clear signs of not having the balls for it. France won't, because it wants to sell aircraft carriers, Germany won't because of gas, snd while Cameron makes all the right noises, heaven forbid that we cancel those 200 export licences. Wnd as for flaiming "it's for Brazil", oh please. If Brazil wants to buy, fine, let them buy from us. But not via Russia. Not after this. So come on, Cameton, grow a pair. ALL military exports to Russia should be stopped, immediately, with no exceptions. Do you realise how much of an idiot, and hypocrite, you look, otherwise, eh, Cameron? Eh, eh? Do ya?

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

nice in theory. Meanwhile another superpower is actively arming a minority in breach of a international law and treaties, and someone from that minority has just murdered a bunch of civilians. Armchair political theory is nice, what happens if the other side is a nuclear superpower who isn't playing by the same nice rules?

ftfy!

When it comes to treaties superpowers don't give a damn and it has been the case for 100s of years,and they all play by a different set of rules to the rest of the world. Perhaps you might want to look at South America,The Middle East,Africa and Asia,and how superpowers used divide and conquer tactics,and exploitation of internal strife to get what they want and even mass movements of people leading to demographic changes(the British have certainly done the latter),while breaking multiple treaties when it was convinient. Perhaps you might actually want to talk to people from those parts of the world(or even try living there) and see how people still have not forgotten. Europe has a VERY SHORT cultural memory when it comes to these sorts of things - don't ever consider this the norm for most of the world. For example in China they still talk about the "Century of humiliation" and so on.

The same play book for 100s of years.

We have not got to where we are controlling most of the world's resources by being nice to people. Unless OFC,you think that 80% of the world is fine with giving up over 70% of all resources to the top 20% and living in a **** hole with 2.5 billion people lacking access to proper sanitation and just over a billion lacking access to even clean drinking water - I some how doubt that. We all like our comfortable ,cushy lives way too much and most are willing to give up none of it. We are selfish but sadly people would really live in denial since it makes themselves feel better.

[opel80uk]

As you have already agreed they have no legitimate right to be in Ukraine. (NO threats, NO dead Russians, NO unfulfilled treaties).

So tell me which of the world leaders would invade an neighboring ally under those circumstances. I will give you a clue. You need to go back to 1939.



What areas are majority ethnic Russians? Crimea is 54% and Donetsk is around 30%. It was higher a decade ago, and may start to increase again. But Ethnic Russians are a minority in all areas of Ukraine apart from Crimea.

Don't be confused with Russian speakers and Ethnic Russians.

As he did with the Chechens, the Georgians, he will make sure the percentage of Russians increase.

I very much doubt that, after the overthrow of the Yanukovych regime, corrupt or otherwise, Putin saw Ukraine as an ally. If you accept that, then he becomes just another leader invading another country, with it slightly nuanced because of the fairly recent history of the Soviet Union.

You are right about the ethnically Russian. What I should have said is supporters of a pro-Russian Government:
http://america.aljazeera.com/multime...itycrisis.html

[opel80uk]

ftfy!

When it comes to treaties superpowers don't give a damn and it has been the case for 100s of years,and they all play by a different set of rules to the rest of the world. Perhaps you might want to look at South America,The Middle East,Africa and Asia,and how superpowers used divide and conquer tactics,and exploitation of internal strife to get what they want and even mass movements of people leading to demographic changes(the British have certainly done the latter),while breaking multiple treaties when it was convinient. Perhaps you might actually want to talk to people from those parts of the world(or even try living there) and see how people still have not forgotten. Europe has a VERY SHORT cultural memory when it comes to these sorts of things - don't ever consider this the norm for most of the world. For example in China they still talk about the "Century of humiliation" and so on.

The same play book for 100s of years.

We have not got to where we are controlling most of the world's resources by being nice to people. Unless OFC,you think that 80% of the world is fine with giving up over 70% of all resources to the top 20% and living in a **** hole with 2.5 billion people lacking access to proper sanitation and just over a billion lacking access to even clean drinking water - I some how doubt that. We all like our comfortable ,cushy lives way too much and most are willing to give up none of it. We are selfish but sadly people would really live in denial since it makes themselves feel better.

Ah come on CAT, Russia aren’t allowed to follow the same rules the West have been following for…… ever. That’s just a big no no.

As for your wider point, you will find many articles, books, Historians etc, that will tell you that the Empire was actually a very good thing. Not just for those back in Blightly, which got fat from the proceeds, but for the natives of the lands that were colonised. We brought them civilisation old chap! That’s got to be worth the years of pillage, rape and murder that they endured, no? There are plenty that are willing to underplay the effects we have had, whilst acting hysterical as soon as someone else takes a leaf out of that book.

And this is the problem. Saracen said that Russia is acting like a bully, which it is, but doesn’t seem to take into account that that is exactly what we have done, and are continuing to do to this day. We don’t like it when we are made to feel the insecurity, and threats to the status quo that a lot of the rest of the world have experienced at the West’s hands. Couple that with the fact that we have a selective memory of around 5 minutes previous, and it’s the perfect combination to put in place a policy of ‘one rule for us, another for you’. And then people appear incredulous that that appears to antagonise others that aren’t in that ‘us’.

[kalniel]

Certainly that's the argument put forward by several places, from China to Mugabe, and it's quite right that we acknowledge past wrongs. But sins of the father and all that.. a wrong committed by our ancestors (or even living former-authorities) should not preclude our current generation from attempting to conduct ourselves in a moral manner and attempting to persuade others to the merits of doing so.

[wasabi]

Saracen said that Russia is acting like a bully, which it is, but doesn’t seem to take into account that that is exactly what we have done, and are continuing to do to this day.

You keep repeating this. How is it relevant to our course of action?

We're not playing moral-superiority top trumps.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Certainly that's the argument put forward by several places, from China to Mugabe, and it's quite right that we acknowledge past wrongs. But sins of the father and all that.. a wrong committed by our ancestors (or even living former-authorities) should not preclude our current generation from attempting to conduct ourselves in a moral manner and attempting to persuade others to the merits of doing so.

However,we rarely do,and even then we are still doing EXACTLY the same now.

The thing is all our leaders(and that includes those in Russia and China),all were adults during the cold war,and as a result are still "tainted" by that era,and have not moved on. It needs a new generation of leaders who are younger if we truely want all these bloody lies and posturing to stop.

Another thing,by 2020,NATO itself will have access to 28 assault and aircraft carriers,with 14 classed as supercarriers above 60000 tonnes ,and 24 of them above 40000 tonnes(the US assault carriers are more or less compact aircraft carriers). We have nearly 40 large amphibous assault ships alone over 10000 tonnes. We have huge expeditionary forces,and they are getting bigger. The NATO alliance has more large power projection naval vessels than the rest of the world(over 5 billion people) combined(over 60). If you even look at the total size of the US naval attack wings on their supercarriers alone,it would rank as one of the largest airforces in the world,with some of the most advanced aircraft out there.

The only reason we have such large expeditionary forces is for power project(and will projection) into other countries far from our territorial limits,and the thing is now we are starting to see an aircraft carrier arms race between China and India too as a result. Not so sure about Russia though,one of the reasons they bought Mistral helicopter carriers from France,is since they could not even build a 16000 ton ship properly,so needed the technical assistance. The moribound Russian ship building industry might actually have helped us somewhat!

Anyway,I am going off topic here.

[opel80uk]

You keep repeating this. How is it relevant to our course of action?

We're not playing moral-superiority top trumps.

Well, aside from the fact that it seems to me rather ridiculous that we are calling out others for what we have been doing quite patently, the reason why I keep repeating it, I would have though, is quite obvious. Russia and China have an increasingly growing, albeit slowly, alliance, fuelled by both of their continued issues with American led blocs, and having that cemented further by the fact that sanctions on Russia are making them more reliant on China. If the West was to stupidly get involved militarily in Ukraine, and de facto Russia, with no consistency with regards when a country can or cannot invade another, and given China’s own territorial squabbles, do you not think that might upset the pair of them? It’s all well and good people posturing and saying let’s do something, but provoking a potential Russia-China pairing is definitely not a good idea. You cannot say, indirectly with your actions, to powerful nations, with ambitions of influence, that we can do it, but you can’t. That is a sure fire way to antagonise, and not the way to contain them.

As for moral-superiority top trumps, I don’t think we’d fair too well in that either.

[HalloweenJack]

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a..._tried_to.html

[Galant]

We're not playing moral-superiority top trumps.

A bit off-topic but just having read this I'm now thinking I'd love to know what the card categories would be for that.