New York's Gay School

[BoB_DoG]

I think that any kind of segregation is only going to make matters worse, and will not help these kids when they leave school and have to go out into a "straight" world. They may be maladjusted, and ill prepared for how it treats them. Not saying its right, thats just what I think will happen

On the other hand, it could give them more self confidence.

Who knows, and really who cares, America always seems to come up with more stupid ideas than good ones.

[Zathras]

Originally posted by spikegifted
First, we'd start with a march to Hyde Park! Then we partition the PM to create laws to safeguard the rights of straight people and then we need to get all the charities on board to increase 'straightness awareness' in the community, business, and politics.

"Oh how hard done by we are because we're straight. Look at all the incredible prejudices we suffer, for example the.... the.... well, you know"

Just exactly what prejudices and discrimination do straight people have to put up with? Exactly what 'rights' of straight people are under threat? What issue of heterosexuality is it that people need making aware of?

There are very real and very present issues of discrimination, prejudice and aggression towards certain minority groups in the UK. Although racism is thankfully decreasing blacks and asians are far more likely to be attacked either verbally or physically, held back in their careers, be stopped without significant reason by the police... the list goes on. The same applies to gay people and the reaction of many who consider themselves 'normal'. To even allude to saying the 'rights' of white heterosexual people aren't being addressed is to completely trivialise problems of discrimination in our society. How can you even compare the very minor areas that white people get aggreived at (such as the naming of the MOBO awards - "where's the MOWO awards?") to the institutional prejudice people that are considered 'different' come across?

As for the 'norm', just what the heck is normal and how do you define it? Stating that something is not the 'norm' or not 'normal behaviour' is often an excuse for peoples' prejudices, trying to make their unfounded problems with certain people in our society sound acceptable. Over a half of the population have browny-green eyes. Do you go around pointing to those who have blue eyes and stating they are 'not normal'? Of course homosexuality is not as common as heterosexuality but to label it 'not normal' is very accusatory, in a 'you're abnormal and unacceptable'' way. Why does a teacher have to label things 'normal' and 'not normal'? How far does this labelling have to go? Things aren't simply either 'normal' or 'abnormal'. Why can't there be acceptance of homosexuality and why does there have to be this 'not normal' accusation and all the things implied through it?

I hardly think this school will instill a sense into those who go there that heterosexuality is 'abnormal' for many reasons. Firstly something being normal doesn't implicitly mean the different choice being 'abnormal'. I hardly think the staff there with their experience of the prejudice against them for being homosexual will preach that heterosexuality is a deviance as it goes against the idea of 'acceptance' that they're trying to promote. Secondly these kids aren't going to be cocooned away from the rest of society, a society which remains for the majority heterosexual, in TV shows, the media, religion, all sorts of ways. Everywhere but the school these children are going to be living in a 'straight' world.

I don't see the school as being the first of a whole wave of schools across the US, nor do I see them replacing mixed-sexuality schools and creating massive segragation. We won't end up with 'gay schools' as we have C of E or Catholic schools in this country and the parents having to make a choice between them - "well, he's not gay but the teaching is _so_ much better at the gay school" isn't going to happen. A sense of proportionality is needed here. This unit is for children persecuted for their sexuality in a way that is undermining their education and to help and support them in their studies. It's not going to be a 'gay=right, straight=wrong' militant-gay place, nor is the emphasis going to be on sexuality or sexual issues, rather an everyday academic education that the kids haven't been able to get elsewhere. It'd be great if this school wasn't needed, but the fact is it is. Society can't be changed overnight - like with fighting an illness the doctor has to address the symptoms as well as eradicate the cause. Hopefully we can get to the stage where gay kids are not seen as 'abnormal' or something to fear just like for the most part people in the last forty years have come to look upon black people as what they are, first and foremost a fellow human rather than something different and scary. I'm not pretending racism doesn't exist, but the awareness is there that a black person is fundamentally no different to a white person other than the colour of their skin.

As for the natural world, there is scientific evidence of homosexuality in a range of animals, including primates.

[Anders]

But doesn’t a school like this just send out the message that homosexual people are different and need to be treated differently? I still see this as segregation and as bad as schools for people of only a set race or religion. I can’t see how the school solves anything.

Children are often horrible to obese children, so why not have a school for only obese children then? I’m not saying that the being horrible is right, I just don’t think separate schools is the right way forward. Narrow-minded children will simple tell the homosexual children to ****-off to the "homosexual school". Instead of mixing with homosexual people and learning they are nice people just like themselves, they will just see them as different in their "special school".

[DaBeeeenster]

Originally posted by spikegifted
I think we should organize some celerations during the year to let the whole country/world know that apart from gay people, straight people have their special needs also.

First, we'd start with a march to Hyde Park! Then we partition the PM to create laws to safeguard the rights of straight people and then we need to get all the charities on board to increase 'straightness awareness' in the community, business, and politics.

This attitude really annoys me. EVERY SINGLE FESTIVAL/MARCH/GROUP/MEETING IN THE COUNTRY IS, UNLESS DEFINED AS "HOMOSEXUAL", STRAIGHT.

Glastonbury is a straight music festival. Sundissential is a straight nightclub. 99% of pubs in britain are straight.

Straight people have more rights than gay people; this is a fact. If people want to send their kids to certain schools, that's up to them, but dont give me any of this "I'm white, middle classed, and I'm opressed" BS. When you've been stabbed in the stomach by a racist, repeatedly pulled over by the police and had racist abuse shouted at you by strangers (as has happened to an asian friend of mine, all on account of his skin colour), then you are in a position to complain. As you are not, I suggest you keep your eyes open and your mouth shut

[Slick]

Originally posted by DaBeeeenster
but dont give me any of this "I'm white, middle classed, and I'm opressed" BS

FYI spikegifted is chinese

[spikegifted]

I'll leave to racial stuff out of my reply since this is suppose to be talking about 'gay rights' or whatever...

Have I experienced discrimination because I'm straight? Yes... Back in my university days, one of my part time jobs was working in a high street retail high fashion menswear store. The section I worked in had 5 people, apart from me, the rest of the crew were gay. I had a great time working with them - they were professional salesmen and knew their stuff and they were generally good guys to work with. Some were genuinely very nice people. However, once outside the store, I'd trouble socializing with them.

For example, after a long and busy Saturday, the usual comradary thing to do was to go out for an after-work drink. When it came to choice of venue, it would always be one of the gay pubs or bars that were off the side of Oxford Street. Did I have a choice? No - the majority would decide. If I preferred not to hang out in a gay bar, I would miss the chance of socialized with them and being part of the 'team'.

So, I went with them to a gay pub/bar... That's effectively part of the 'scene'. For gay people I'm clearly not gay. I had been talked to by people in those establishments querying who was I with... If my answer was 'I'm waiting for friends', I would have been invited to wait outside until my friends arrive. Once the only Chinese person in there probably didn't help, as I stuck out like a soar thumb.

In effect, being a straight guy with a gay friend in a gay bar is ok... But a straight guy by himself in a gay bar is a big no-no! What is that?? If a gay person being asked to leave a normal pub/bar because he's gay and he's not with a straight person, it will be an outrage. But it is not so the other way round... What kind of a world is this?

[DaBeeeenster]

Originally posted by spikegifted
I'll leave to racial stuff out of my reply since this is suppose to be talking about 'gay rights' or whatever...

Have I experienced discrimination because I'm straight? Yes... Back in my university days, one of my part time jobs was working in a high street retail high fashion menswear store. The section I worked in had 5 people, apart from me, the rest of the crew were gay. I had a great time working with them - they were professional salesmen and knew their stuff and they were generally good guys to work with. Some were genuinely very nice people. However, once outside the store, I'd trouble socializing with them.

For example, after a long and busy Saturday, the usual comradary thing to do was to go out for an after-work drink. When it came to choice of venue, it would always be one of the gay pubs or bars that were off the side of Oxford Street. Did I have a choice? No - the majority would decide. If I preferred not to hang out in a gay bar, I would miss the chance of socialized with them and being part of the 'team'.

So, I went with them to a gay pub/bar... That's effectively part of the 'scene'. For gay people I'm clearly not gay. I had been talked to by people in those establishments querying who was I with... If my answer was 'I'm waiting for friends', I would have been invited to wait outside until my friends arrive. Once the only Chinese person in there probably didn't help, as I stuck out like a soar thumb.

In effect, being a straight guy with a gay friend in a gay bar is ok... But a straight guy by himself in a gay bar is a big no-no! What is that?? If a gay person being asked to leave a normal pub/bar because he's gay and he's not with a straight person, it will be an outrage. But it is not so the other way round... What kind of a world is this?

I dont quite understand the issue. If most of your workmates were gay, going to a gay bar sounds normal. Maybe once every few weeks you could have asked to go to a straight bar?

I've been a to a number of gay bars in Soho (normally just for a quick drink as I used to work around that way) and I have to say I have _never_ been asked to leave the bar/pub on account of being straight. I dont know, maybe I look really gay

If anyone asked me if I was straight and consequently ask me to wait outside I'd tell them to **** off and take their bigotted views elsewhere. Quite simple really.

To me it sounds like you have met a couple of bigotted gay people who have it in for straight guys. Although I think there is a modicum of justification in as much gay people in England are given a lot of **** by straight men, their views may well have been bigotted.

I dont think you can say that, because you met a few bigotted gay people that there is some sort of UK conspiracy against straight men.

As to your final point, it's an outrage either way. Who on earth is saying that a straight person being asked to leave a gay bar is not an outrage? I think that's pretty outrageous.

[Big RICHARD]

Originally posted by DaBeeeenster
I dont quite understand the issue. If most of your workmates were gay, going to a gay bar sounds normal. Maybe once every few weeks you could have asked to go to a straight bar?

I've been a to a number of gay bars in Soho (normally just for a quick drink as I used to work around that way) and I have to say I have _never_ been asked to leave the bar/pub on account of being straight. I dont know, maybe I look really gay

If anyone asked me if I was straight and consequently ask me to wait outside I'd tell them to **** off and take their bigotted views elsewhere. Quite simple really.

To me it sounds like you have met a couple of bigotted gay people who have it in for straight guys. Although I think there is a modicum of justification in as much gay people in England are given a lot of **** by straight men, their views may well have been bigotted.

I dont think you can say that, because you met a few bigotted gay people that there is some sort of UK conspiracy against straight men.

As to your final point, it's an outrage either way. Who on earth is saying that a straight person being asked to leave a gay bar is not an outrage? I think that's pretty outrageous.

You ask for evidence of someone being prejudged due their being straight and as soon as someone does, you put it down to a 'couple of bigotted gay people' giving this fella a hard time because they have had 'a lot of **** from straight men'.

This is exactly the problem we have. We can explain our way out of prejudice when it isn't against the minority, but this 'put up and shut up' attitude causes more problems than it solves. It causes hatred between groups, rather than understanding.

We don't tell the [insert minority group here] to put up and shut up! We arrest the perpertrator of such prejudice for [insert and -ism here]-ist abuse!

Oh, sorry, I've never heard of heterophobia or straight-ism!

[DaBeeeenster]

Originally posted by Big RICHARD
You ask for evidence of someone being prejudged due their being straight and as soon as someone does, you put it down to a 'couple of bigotted gay people' giving this fella a hard time because they have had 'a lot of **** from straight men'.

This is exactly the problem we have. We can explain our way out of prejudice when it isn't against the minority, but this 'put up and shut up' attitude causes more problems than it solves. It causes hatred between groups, rather than understanding.

We don't tell the [insert minority group here] to put up and shut up! We arrest the perpertrator of such prejudice for [insert and -ism here]-ist abuse!

Oh, sorry, I've never heard of heterophobia or straight-ism!

You must have ignored the part of my post that stated

I'd tell them to **** off and take their bigotted views elsewhere. Quite simple really.

I think you need to be careful not to confuse some bigots with the sort of widespread homophobia that can and often is present in UK society.

I totally agree that people should be arrested for holding these views. There should be no discrimination based on any form of difference, be it sex,sexuality, race etc.

I am NOT condoning them because they were gay. They are just as much in the wrong as a homophobe saying the same thing to a gay guy in a straight pub.

[Slick]

Some gay people discriminate, recently a gay bar owner in London bared a gay person because he was bringing too many straight people in. Some black people discriminate, my brother's friend's mum doesn't like him hanging around with white children. But at the end of the day these people are in the minority and there are far less of them than the people who discriminate the other way around e.g. homophobes, racists.

[Big RICHARD]

Originally posted by Slick
Some gay people discriminate, recently a gay bar owner in London bared a gay person because he was bringing too many straight people in. Some black people discriminate, my brother's friend's mum doesn't like him hanging around with white children. But at the end of the day these people are in the minority and there are far less of them than the people who discriminate the other way around e.g. homophobes, racists.

OK, point taken, by both yourself and Dabeeeenster.....


One point that I note is that Dabeeeenster automatically assumed spikey is:

".....white, middle classed, and [I'm] opressed"

because of his comments

"I think we should organize some celerations during the year to let the whole country/world know that apart from gay people, straight people have their special needs also"


This is an assumption that he is white and straight. He could be as queer as a nine bob note and (as he is....) of east asian descent!

We need to stop making assumptions about each other.

I notice that someone who is (in theory) from a minority background (although he probably doesn't see it that way, from his comments) notices himself that we pander too much to minorities. It seems being a minority group has its advantages also, like being able to call xxx-ism against other people, when in fact it is them who is xxx-ist.

[DaBeeeenster]

Just because you are a member of a minority group does not mean you are given carte blanche on being racist.

Whoever thinks that this should be allowed is wrong.

I'm not sure why you think that it is the case BigRichard - can you provide an example?

[spikegifted]

Ok, I'll try not to stray too far from the topic...

IMHO, everybody has some kind of prejudice against one thing or another. This is only natural since we're brought up in certain culture and has taken in certain education. By its own meaning, prejudice is the result of pre-conditioning. Whether the prejudice will show externally or remain a hiden item is entirely up to the individual. I can say, very honest, I have certain prejudice but I try very hard not to discriminate - the 'person' is more important than the 'stereotype'...

With regards to gay people, as I've mentioned before, I don't really have a problem with them. Ok, I don't necessarily like all of them, but then again, it's like asking someone to like every person he meets - it's just not possible. However, I like to stress that I don't like gay people who bang on about 'gay rights' while they themselves are actively pre-judging other gays or straights simply because they don't share their views - that's what I call hiding 'behind an agenda'. These will never be happy because no matter what you're willing to give them (rights or otherwise), they'll never feel they're capable of being equal to the rest of the world - they just keep demanding more and more.

For me, I'm straight and have never had any homosexual incline or desires. That is not a crime. I don't think I'm homophobic, but certain gay practice make me feel uneasy. I so happen to be a minority in the country, but then again, I don't have an issue with it as long as others don't make it an issue. That is what I try to get across - usually being gay or being a minority is not an issue until someone make it one. For those gay folks in NY, why do they want to make a fuss when their children are not being discriminated against?

[DaBeeeenster]

Originally posted by spikegifted
Ok, I'll try not to stray too far from the topic...

IMHO, everybody has some kind of prejudice against one thing or another. This is only natural since we're brought up in certain culture and has taken in certain education. By its own meaning, prejudice is the result of pre-conditioning. Whether the prejudice will show externally or remain a hiden item is entirely up to the individual. I can say, very honest, I have certain prejudice but I try very hard not to discriminate - the 'person' is more important than the 'stereotype'...

With regards to gay people, as I've mentioned before, I don't really have a problem with them. Ok, I don't necessarily like all of them, but then again, it's like asking someone to like every person he meets - it's just not possible. However, I like to stress that I don't like gay people who bang on about 'gay rights' while they themselves are actively pre-judging other gays or straights simply because they don't share their views - that's what I call hiding 'behind an agenda'. These will never be happy because no matter what you're willing to give them (rights or otherwise), they'll never feel they're capable of being equal to the rest of the world - they just keep demanding more and more.

For me, I'm straight and have never had any homosexual incline or desires. That is not a crime. I don't think I'm homophobic, but certain gay practice make me feel uneasy. I so happen to be a minority in the country, but then again, I don't have an issue with it as long as others don't make it an issue. That is what I try to get across - usually being gay or being a minority is not an issue until someone make it one. For those gay folks in NY, why do they want to make a fuss when their children are not being discriminated against?

I agree with some of what you have said, but I think there is an important point in terms of people banging on about gay rights.

The reason people bang on about it is because homosexuals dont have the same rights as heterosexuals in the UK, the US, or indeed pretty much anywhere. I agree that sometimes people use it as an excuse to be bigotted, maybe like the people that asked you to leave the bar for being straight, but the fact remains that people will complain about it (and have a right to do so, IMHO) up until the point at which they have the same rights as everyone else, and rightfully so.

I think we have two issues here.

1. Gay people do not have the same rights as straight people. This p&&&es them off and they complain about it. This I have no problem with. This is fine.

2. Some people DO use the gay rights issue as an excuse for having bigotted views. This I do not agree with.

I think you need to be very careful about identifying which area you are talking about, as it is very easy for people to get the wrong end of the stick and assume that you are badmouthing gay people on account of them being gay. I dont believe you are, but it can come across like that.

What I am interested in, spikegifted, is the fact that you stated the following:

With regards to gay people, as I've mentioned before, I don't really have a problem with them.

You dont have a problem, or you dont really have a problem? Why the "really"? I know it's being pedantic, but it does make a significant difference to the tone of the statement. It sounds as if you do have a small problem but it's not really enough of a problem to warrant you saying so. See what I mean?

and secondly:

certain gay practice make me feel uneasy.

I assume you are talking about sexual practise? I'm curious as to why on earth people seem to make a constant reference between homosexuality and sexual practise. Certain heterosexual practise makes me uneasy, but I feel no reason to mention it whenever we are discussing heterosexual couples. Why mention it when discussing homosexual ones?

[Big RICHARD]

Originally posted by DaBeeeenster
I agree with some of what you have said, but I think there is an important point in terms of people banging on about gay rights.

The reason people bang on about it is because homosexuals dont have the same rights as heterosexuals in the UK, the US, or indeed pretty much anywhere. I agree that sometimes people use it as an excuse to be bigotted, maybe like the people that asked you to leave the bar for being straight, but the fact remains that people will complain about it (and have a right to do so, IMHO) up until the point at which they have the same rights as everyone else, and rightfully so.

I think we have two issues here.

1. Gay people do not have the same rights as straight people. This p&&&es them off and they complain about it. This I have no problem with. This is fine.

2. Some people DO use the gay rights issue as an excuse for having bigotted views. This I do not agree with.

I think you need to be very careful about identifying which area you are talking about, as it is very easy for people to get the wrong end of the stick and assume that you are badmouthing gay people on account of them being gay. I dont believe you are, but it can come across like that.

What I am interested in, spikegifted, is the fact that you stated the following:


You dont have a problem, or you dont really have a problem? Why the "really"? I know it's being pedantic, but it does make a significant difference to the tone of the statement. It sounds as if you do have a small problem but it's not really enough of a problem to warrant you saying so. See what I mean?

and secondly:

I assume you are talking about sexual practise? I'm curious as to why on earth people seem to make a constant reference between homosexuality and sexual practise. Certain heterosexual practise makes me uneasy, but I feel no reason to mention it whenever we are discussing heterosexual couples. Why mention it when discussing homosexual ones?

I agree mostly. I think the 'really' is just the way some people speak. I hope it is, cos that's the way I took it, as I speak like that......

[spikegifted]

With regards to the usage of "really", for me, it is a figure of speech, in that I don't really distinguish the difference between "I don't mind..." and "I don't really mind..."

On the issue of "I assume you are talking about sexual practise?", I'm implying more than that. For example, some gay people feel that they've to exaggerate their 'feminine' behavior, mode of speech and gestures (to attract attention, I suppose), which for me is just awful. My opinion of this type of behavior is not just limited gay people - some 'tough guys' like to 'demonstrate' how tough they really are not by being rude or other peasant-like behavior. All these behavior upset me. It is, to some extent, single out gay people for this, but as this is a thread about 'gay rights', I'm simply highlighting my opinion.

With regards to the wider 'gay rights', I don't know what kind of rights they don't already have? Are you talking about their rights to adopt children? Call me old fashion, gay people have no rights to have children - adopted or otherwise - simply based on the arguments of the children's mental and social developments. Are you talking about 'gay marriages'? Again, call me old fashion, but marriage is between two people of opposite sexes. If they wanted equal treatment of a gay couple in legal terms as 'normal couples', that's fine in my books, but not marriage.

What I've consistently said is that being gay, or homosexual, is not natural state for human being. By being gay or homosexual, the individual automatically gives up some of his/her rights.