View Poll Results: What do you think of the budget?

Voters
27. You may not vote on this poll
  • vote now, pay later. It's a scam to calm the electorate

    10 37.04%
  • dull Brown, stealth taxes to fill the economic hole when no one's looking

    5 18.52%
  • nothing dramatic for the new guy to take over.

    2 7.41%
  • Gord is a genius, we'll all miss him terribly.

    10 37.04%
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Thread: The last budget

  1. #33
    Senior Member RVF500's Avatar
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    Dunno if my accountant will like you nicking his clients from under him

    I was non-resident for over 4 years before which is why I'll be out before the end of the current tax year (Saturday). In fact I'll be in the states for a week first and then fly on to KL a couple of days after I get back which will also be just on the cusp as it happens, but on the right side of it. Will keep my accountant happy as he was wondering how he was going to keep his record of low taxation for me in the face of UK income.
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  2. #34
    G4Z
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    Good for you RVF. pleased for you mate, I plan to move out of this country once I have made enough cash. Get some nice property for nowt in some backwater eastern european country or sommat.

    Must say my overall impression on the tax issue is that none of the partys has an answer although I do belive the Lib Dems are the most honest about it. The Tories actually think they can reduce tax whilst spending increased whilst there is already a big difference between spending and revenue, This I think is pure crap tbh.

    I couldnt trust Tony again and I can well imagine fuel duty and national insurance rises in the next term (if they get it whitch they almost certainly will). Lib dems, 1p on income tax for those over £100k? sounds fair enough to me tbh and I aim to be at that earning level at some point, I would love to see the end of council tax and some proportional representation in parliment, so thats where my vote is going.

    Stamp duty and inheritance tax, well total con arent they, I can imagine my parents estate being over that so I may get hit by that one. They do alright and my dad owns his own business but they are by no means rich, more just secure. I really dont think this is really a tax that will not effect 94% thats just ludicrus.

    Stamp duty at 120k? well, its better but by no means where it should be, I am seriously considering never buying property here and just moving elsewhere (taking my skills with me). Houses here are overpriced (or more accurately the land is) and I refuse to move in some scrot-hole from hell when I earn over 30k pa.
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  3. #35
    Senior Member RVF500's Avatar
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    Thanks G4Z. It looks like a large GSM rollout in that part of the world. Hopefully it will herald a real upswing in IT/Telecoms globally. I was in Malaysia for a short while in '97 and I'm looking forward to going back.

    The answer to the last brain drain from the present govt was to make it easier for foriegn IT professionals to work in the UK. This was in the wake of IR35 when I large number of IT contractors took their skills elsewhere in response to that particular class tax. I was one of them. So I don't blame you for thinking the same way. Bulgaria looks good. Get out there before the property agencies screw it up.

    It did indeed worry the govt as Lord Somerset (if I remember correctly) was sent to meet with a contractors lobby group (I forget the name but they were very well organised and representative and mounted a number of legal challenges to the tax) out in Holland to see if common ground could be found. The engineers simply wanted IR35 revoked, the revenue had made a net loss anyway on it, and tax would be paid through normal company rules. Dawn Primorolo famously stated 'they earn too much anyway' and the tax stayed. How someone with an expense account alone exceeding the average contractors gross income can come out with that statement is beyond me. Not only did the revenue make a net loss as the accountants association warned them. They lost a significant amount of new money coming into the country.

    I see the £200 pensioner rebate has come under fire today. Apparently if any other credits are received then the pensioners aren't entitled. It also seems to be at the mercy of means testing. Only read it quickly on the train on the way in so I'll have a more in depth look later.

    The Lib Dems may be honest about tax but in the great scheme of things I personally think they are not equipped to run the country. Just an opinion, and I never sign on in here without my flame proof underwear
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  4. #36
    Now with added sobriety Rave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    Inheritance tax....tell me why my kids should pay tax on goods and property that I have paid tax on all my life?
    Well, as far as I can see it's one way of putting a brake on the rich/poor divide. You can get wealthy and you can leave a lot of money to your kids, but the government takes a chunk. At the end of the day they take 40%, your beneficiaries still recieve £260,000 tax free and 60% of the rest, so the amount you leave them is still proportional to your wealth. It's likely that both my (soon to be divorced) parents will leave sizeable estates when they die; I'll be glad of the money if they leave some to me, but I don't feel any sense of entitlement to it. My Dad is currently buying a second home in a 'gated community' in Florida; after bills my wife and I have £100 to spend a week between us, and that includes food. I don't go to him for a handout though, because I believe in supporting myself.

    When inheritance tax was introduced it only applied to the super-rich, that is true. There is an argument to be made that it should be re-evaluated in the light of the changing economic conditions in this country. However, a large (probably very large) proportion of the people who have become subject to it in recent years have done so because of the extrodinary increase in house prices. As you know, I would much rather that we had not seen such a huge rise; in that situation far fewer people would be subject to inheritance tax. I think that in this situation inheritance tax is entirely fair; the money people have 'made' through house price inflation should reasonably be counted as a capital gain IMO, and without applying either inheritance tax or Capital Gains tax to it, we are in danger of creating a class divide between those who were lucky enough to have bought property before the boom, and those who were not.

    I wouldn't want you to shed a tear for them anyway rave. They know how to make the best of a situation, they've been poor too (the 2 oldest have). So have I. I grew up in a council flat in a 1 parent family. I was also homeless for a while so being poor is nothing new to me. In fact we stood and watched single parent families being housed while we waited.
    My parents certainly weren't rich when I was born, they are fairly wealthy now. Overall you've probably had it harder than me though<shrugs>.

    Though the lib dem housing officer did say to my wife that if she left me then they would house her and the kids. Forgive me if I don't vote lib dem. I value my family too much.
    I wasn't aware that Housing Officer was an elected position? If you mean he was the housing officer for a Lib-Dem council then fair enough, but as I understand it local authorities are tightly constrained by the rules set out for them by central government. I don't think you would have had it any different under a Labour or Tory council.

    Why should I, or anyone like me, be penalised for working hard? Why, because I work hard and improve my standards, should I be penalised more for buying a nicer property? After all it vacates a property further down the ladder for someone else.
    Overall, I don't think you are penalised for working hard, albeit that I agree that a lot of tax rules are arcane and arbitrary. I have no problem with reforming taxes to ensure that they're levied in a fair and sensible fashion, I just don't think that we should be aiming to lower overall tax revenue. I agree that the stamp duty rules are silly, I think it should be a flat rate; I don't think it should be abolished in the current housing market for the same reasons as I don't think inheritance tax should be.

    Ok, you're a lib dem
    I'm not as it happens. I may vote for them as the least worst option in the forthcoming election, but I don't think my opinions of how a liberal government should be run coincide very closely with the opinions of the Liberal Democrat party. I'm in favour of a government that taxes and spends sensibly, intervenes in economic policy only as far as it's necessary to ensure growth, and that nobody gets left behind, and then leaves the citizens free to live how they like with minimal intervention.

    Interestingly most people who yell loudest about those with more should pay more are not going to be affected by such payment increases. Tell me, does a higher rate tax payer who loses their job get benefits in line with the greater contribution they have made while working or do they just get the same as someone who may never have contributed?
    Yes, they get more for at least the first six months (it's a few months since I looked into it, I forget the exact details). My wife has paid NI all her working life as I said (in another thread?), but since she's only ever had low paid jobs she didn't qualify for contribution based JSA, only income based.

    Now, my stance on the private housing on council estates comes from personal experience. I moved out of council/housing association into a private house. This house happened to be in the very next street and was a new developement. My erstwhile neighbours for some reason decided that I now thought I was too good for them. This was transmitted to their kids 3 of whom decided to set upon my son when he went round to play with his 'friends'. They actually came off worse in this exchange I'm happy to say. I hadn't changed towards them, they had towards me. It was an us and them situation the same type of situation that I believe would arise if private housing was built on council estates. Strangely this kind of thing doesn't seem to arise when tenants buy their council homes. Maybe because outwardly nothing changes. I dunno. Inexpensive, affordable housing needs to be built. I gree wholeheartedly. But should be built on private estates.
    <shrugs> Fair enough. Doesn't bother me whether they're built on council estates or not. I do however think that developers should be forced to integrate different levels of housing within one development, rather than as currently often happens, being allowed to build their mandatory affordable housing quota in a ghetto well away from their Luxury Executive Homes.

  5. #37
    Senior Member RVF500's Avatar
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    Seems we actually agree on just about everything except the inheritance thing when it boils down to it. I still don't believe that tax paid goods should be taxed again simply because ownership within a family has changed. I thought that before I was caught in the inheritance dragnet. I will probably make planes to move assets offshore should I actually live long enough to grow old.

    I assumed you were lib dem as in another thread you wrote something like .....as a lib dem I like taxes....or something like that. Obviously not a direct quote there.

    I think that the lady in question was a councillor who was in charge of housing policy. Either way it was a Lib Dem council back then. It was a Tory councillor (female) plus one other (non-political housing officer I believe, also female) who basically brow beat her into getting us housed when we finally were.

    I'm not in a pissing contest with you. There are many people who are worse off than you or I have or will ever be. I was illustrating a point of personal experience. Experiences that have definitely coloured my thinking.

    I do think that the harder you work, the higher up the ladder you climb, the more you are targeted for taxation. Hence my comment the harder you work the more you are penalised. The jump from basic to higher rate is significant. Almost double. If not a flat rate then something more linear. Which govt would probably interpret as 'make it 60% when you get to £50k a year'
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  6. #38
    Now with added sobriety Rave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVF500
    I assumed you were lib dem as in another thread you wrote something like .....as a lib dem I like taxes....or something like that. Obviously not a direct quote there.
    Could be, I've only recently come to this realisation.

    I'm not in a pissing contest with you.
    Suits me, I'd undoubtedly lose.

    I do think that the harder you work, the higher up the ladder you climb, the more you are targeted for taxation. Hence my comment the harder you work the more you are penalised. The jump from basic to higher rate is significant. Almost double. If not a flat rate then something more linear. Which govt would probably interpret as 'make it 60% when you get to £50k a year'
    It wasn't nearly double until the basic rate was dropped from 25% to 22% for the purposes of cheap political point scoring. That's one area I do agree with the Lib Dems on to be honest, in fact I'm strongly in favour of increasing income taxes in exchange for removing most other forms of tax....albeit that altering the prices of particular goods and services through taxation can be necessary for the overall good.

    At the end of the day, I don't have a problem with the higher rate tax band because 1) as previously stated, those on a lower wage have to pay out a proportionally larger chunk of their income in tax anyway and 2) I don't see it as a disincentive to working hard and bettering oneself. O.K., so if you make say an extra £5000 a year you only get to keep £3000 of it, but that's still a hefty chunk of money and something that I'd be keen to work towards.

  7. #39
    Senior Member RVF500's Avatar
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    I'd rather keep £4000 of the £5000. But that's me. If the govt was capable of spending wisely then I might be less militant about it. 'Spending wisely' seems to be an oxymoron to govt.

    Funnily enough I was wondering what had happened to Margaret Beckett. She suddenly appeared in the paper the other day. I forget why now. But up until then the only time I can think of seeing her name since Labour came topower was in conjunction with lavish redecoration at taxpayers expense of her govt apartment. Not a bad track record for 8 years huh? And encapsulates the wise spending analagy nicely I htink. Let's not even start on the subject of MPs expense accounts.
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  8. #40
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    Well I love having more than 50% of my earnings taken away, through tax, VAT, and other sneaky government means. Labour and Lib Dems are complete shisters. Bad as each other.

    Anyway, bit off topic

  9. #41
    Now with added sobriety Rave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebar
    Well I love having more than 50% of my earnings taken away, through tax, VAT, and other sneaky government means.
    Yeah, tax and VAT are sneaky aren't they?

    Labour and Lib Dems are complete shisters.
    Do you mean shyster?

    Bad as each other.

    Anyway, bit off topic
    No, it's on topic, just nonsensical.

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    Wow, a labour fanatic or is it lib dem, usually something to be hiding in the closet about.

    Are you actually happy with this current government?

    Gordon brown just happened to inherit the most favourable economic position this century. He was in the right place at the right time, nothing more.

    My Father-in-law's mother just died and he inherited her estate (around the £1m mark). He isn't rich and would love to be able to give his current house to his 4 children to share and rent from, especially as one is a recent single mum (divorced). He could then move into the other house with his wife and a few years down the line sell it so they can retire to the canary islands with plenty of cash to keep them comfortable.

    Unfortunately thanks to labour he has to pay out a whopping £140,000 over 10 years to keep the new estate, he cant do this so he HAS to sell his original house. Stealing is what it boils down to basically, his mother worked very hard for the money and I know for certain she would have wanted him to enjoy the house with no worries at all.
    Last edited by Firebar; 28-03-2005 at 01:36 AM.

  11. #43
    Now with added sobriety Rave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebar
    Wow, a labour fanatic or is it lib dem, usually something to be hiding in the closet about.
    Who me? Neither actually.

    Are you actually happy with this current government?
    No, but I have sensible reasons to dislike them.

    Gordon brown just happened to inherit the most favourable economic position this century. He was in the right place at the right time, nothing more.
    That's Gordon Brown, names generally need a capital on both the forename and surname. Anyway, the statement is debatable, do you want to back that argument up?

    My Father-in-law's mother just died and he inherited her estate (around the £1m mark). He isn't rich
    Correction....if he inherited her entire estate in its entirety he is rich; if it was worth £1m, then after inheritance tax it's worth £704,000.

    and would love to be able to give his current house to his 4 children to share and rent from, especially as one is a recent single mum (divorced). He could then move into the other house with his wife and a few years down the line sell it so they can retire to the canary islands with plenty of cash to keep them comfortable.
    Right, so explain how he can't do that with £700,000?

    Unfortunately thanks to labour he has to pay out a whopping £140,000 over 10 years to keep the new estate, he cant do this so he HAS to sell his original house. Stealing is what it boils down to basically, his mother worked very hard for the money and I know for certain she would have wanted him to enjoy the house with no worries at all.
    Yeah well whoop-di-do. He didn't work hard for it did he? He's still a rich bloke, why the hell should any of us feel sorry for him?

  12. #44
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    You seem to take this all very very strongly (not to mention personally!). At least you can pick on my grammar

    Yeah well whoop-di-do. He didn't work hard for it did he? He's still a rich bloke, why the hell should any of us feel sorry for him?
    It all comes down to the fact that HE owns the properties. They are in HIS family, not a bloody fat labour politician's. It's not much to ask to be able to keep what is yours and not have to pay out of the bloody nose for it.
    Last edited by Firebar; 28-03-2005 at 11:54 AM.

  13. #45
    G4Z
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    So you telling me that after somebody dies, possibly requiring weeks or years of medical treatment that the state often pays for, (NHS hospitals are often better than private ones for serious conditions like heart problems and stuff). They shouldnt give somthing back to society when they leave a hefty amount behind?

    That what your saying?

    Edit: just realised how wrecked I was when i posted that, edited so it actually means what I mean.
    Last edited by G4Z; 29-03-2005 at 06:38 PM.
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    Why give more? The NHS is there to be used, taxes are paid etc etc. Why hand over even more to the government rather than give it to your own family?

    Agree to disagree I guess. People can say inheritance tax is fair, but just wait till it hits you in the bollocks
    Last edited by Firebar; 28-03-2005 at 11:01 PM.

  15. #47
    Will work for beer... nichomach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebar
    The NHS is there to be used, taxes are paid etc etc.
    Yes, including inheritance tax.

  16. #48
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    Exactly. Why?

    At least it wasnt so bad with the Conservative government.

    I suppose its human nature to spite someone who ends up with a nice big house or a bit of cash. Can't have that, oh no, I'm not as lucky as that.

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