Can somebody please tell me why that man got 3 years? It doesnt make sense, what 'crime' did he commit ? All he did was not belive the holocaust happened, thats his point of view, is that illegal? Do we jail all the people who hatch conspiracy theories such as us not landing on the moon?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial
Tells you a fair bit about it, with quite a few links at the bottom.
"Well, there was your Uncle Tiberius who died wrapped in cabbage leaves but we assumed that was a freak accident."
I still cant work out why they made it illegal to let someone have a personal opinion on something that happened 50 years ago in a supposed free society
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am guessing it runs along the lines of WITH RIGHTS COME RESPONSIBILITIES and those govts (and as we know, there are a fair few) reckon one has the right to hold an opinion but not to broadcast them if they are irresponsible. He, one would assume, was irresponsible in declaring them to the public at large, since it would only add fuel to the dangerous factions that wish to deny the holocaust and other evils that came from Nazism.
As before, those govts have a HUGE responsibility to the world at large not to let something like neo-nazism grow. Massive. The guilt alone has an effect now on generations who had nothing to do with the rise of said ideology, etc etc
anyway, he was kinda asking for trouble to enter that country openly defiant of their laws.
Think most people would go for the WHEN IN ROME.... One doesn't have to become a Roman, of course
There are double standards at work and this is just another case.
I don't agree that he should have been locked up. If anything why not debunk him intellectually and shut him up in a free society.
He was told that he would be arrested and charged if he entered Austria again. He entered Austria.
I would suggest that people who argue for his freedom of speech should spend a few days researching the Holocaust and it's architects. When you see the films the allies took when liberating the death camps with their piles of emancipated bodies and starved, gaunt, diseased prisoners it's hard to make a case for denial.
I recently watched a documentary about the architectural plans the Russians found that detailed the buildings at Auswitz. The crematoria there at it's hight could burn 4,800 bodies a day. Some 1.1million people were murdered.
Whilst I agree that he should be debunked and mocked in this country I can also see why the Austrians and Germans take a more robust attitude. It's their countries that gave rise to fascism and their peoples, even though they didn't live through it or have no responsibility for it, feel responsible and guilty for what happened (although I wish they could get over it). They therefore believe that they have a responsibility to prevent such a terrible event occuring again so conclude that it is better to ensure that the Nazi sympathisers and extreme right do not have the ability to gain support.
"Reality is what it is, not what you want it to be." Frank Zappa. ----------- "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." Huang Po.----------- "A drowsy line of wasted time bathes my open mind", - Ride.
Anyone read the latest thing in the times about the procicutors wanting more than 3 years, apparently 10 is the maximum.
throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)
But if we're honest, unless you were around at that time we have no PROOF that the holocaust happened. We are told that historically it happened, but who is to say that in the last 60 years historical events have not been 'invented' for us 20-somethings to believe in?
Because it's still in living memory of the 80 somethings. Some of whom have numbers tattooed on their forearms. If it didn't happen there are more than a few countries with a vested interest in proving it didn't. Germany and Austria for example.
If it didn't happen then there are more than enough people alive today who could prove it didn't. Perhaps explain why the 'showers' at Auschwitz were such a high priority for destruction? Maybe the retreating Germans simply wanted to deny the Soviets hygene? A novel tactic which in the end didn't seem to work.
The only thing we are not sure of are the exact numbers. It may be less. It may be an awful lot more. Ultimately it's an estimate. But the Germans are inveterate keepers of records and those surviving records in themselves point to horrifying numbers. The camps that were overrun by the allies before the German army (not the Wermacht I might add) could do anything about the evidence is hard to deny. Along with the demographic makeup of the inmates.
"You want loyalty? ......get a dog!"
"Reality is what it is, not what you want it to be." Frank Zappa. ----------- "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." Huang Po.----------- "A drowsy line of wasted time bathes my open mind", - Ride.
Juat to add something. Let's not forget that the holocaust isn't just about the Jewish people. They were the main target I have no doubt but others were targeted in the same way. Nazism basically attacked anyone who didn't fit the bill. Hence Gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally handicapped, slavic people (over 20 million Russians died) and politically opposed individuals, even jehovahs witnesses were all caught up in the same catastrophe. The label has been synonymous with a pogrom and incidents such as Babi Yar in Kiev, the mass shooting of the Riga Jews and the Warsaw ghetto.
I suggest that you look at the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar to read a short description of one of the well documented occurances which alone would have resulted in war crimes trials.
The Wansee conference is also a well documented meeting in which the outline of the final solution to the 'Jewish problem' was decided.
Irving is on very thin ground whenhe tries do deny the holocaust. It's simply too big to deny. By the same token it's also too big to grasp.
"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic." I.V. Stalin
And it's true. Our minds can't grasp that kind of figure.
"You want loyalty? ......get a dog!"
WTF?
I was merely adding a different view point to the argument of historical 'facts' and you add something of no value to the pot?
Idiot.
you've been watching too much of the matrix
I roll my eyes because I cannot believe that someone a) can put across that view and b) think he should be taken seriously for it.
I suggest that you start with RVF500's linky and start doing some research about the holocaust. There is plenty of material available from very wide number of sources on the subject. The conclusion that you will come to is that there is irrefutable proof that those events did occur. Irrefutable proof that an event did occur is called historical fact. Therefore to say that you are adding a different point of view is invalid.
To put across a "point of view", without looking at any evidence is one of the best conspiracy theory tactics and in this case amounts to Holocaust denial. History did not start the day you were born. It makes you sound naive (let alone selfish) to suggest that history has been altered simply for the consumption of twenty somethings. Some of us, fortunately, are older and wiser.
Anyone can come up with conspiracy theories to explain anything and everything by just simply pulling thoughts from fresh air or making things up.
Did you know that the modern computer integrated circuit was invented by the great philosopher "Ik-nowi-tall" in 6000BC. Infact he was the architect of most of the technology that we see today and some historians even suggest that he was a dissident alien. However, his inventions and the blue prints for them were destroyed by the pan galactic organisation, "the universe is not for human beings" because they thought that man was gettting a little too far ahead of himself. We have only been allowed to get where we are today because the UINFHB died out due to a rare infectious brain disease which they rather unfortunately termed "twaddle".
See it's easy to just make it up or not think coherently about anything and then challenge established historical fact. I am not saying that written history should be taken for granted and not challenged but it should also not be simply dismissed out of hand to suit preconceptions.
"Reality is what it is, not what you want it to be." Frank Zappa. ----------- "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." Huang Po.----------- "A drowsy line of wasted time bathes my open mind", - Ride.
Just to stir the pot a bit more. Irving said when questioned about the holocaust "I don't like trademarks, I would rather refer to is at the Jewish tragedy of world war two" by which he gives it his own trade mark. He also trademarks it incorrectly imo because he excludes all the various social groups that were caught up in the same net.
"You want loyalty? ......get a dog!"
Who would you consider the Holocaust architects? The British? The Americans? Francis Galton? Winston Churchill? Theodore Roosevelt? H.G. Wells?
To err is human. To really foul things up ... you need a computer.
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