Denying the Holocaust vs. Freedom of Speech

[Taz]

Some of you may have read about British historian David Irving and his trial in Austria for denying the Holocaust. He has pleaded guilty.

So, this raises a lot of interesting questions. Was it right to punish him for denying the Holocaust or was he using 'freedom of speech' to express his views? Is he going to be turned into a martyr for the far-right neo-Nazi groups?

[fuddam]

IMHO, just because he denies it doesn't make it true.

If he wants to rant and rave about something, he's welcome to do so. He can declare the earth is flat if he wants - touch cookie that it's not the case.

I don't think he should be punished.

[TheAnimus]

indeed, the irony of having laws that could be seen as "this happened, you can't deny it happened" will in the future make it look perhaps like a consipiracy?

Its not as if its hard to proove that 'very nasty things' happened anyway.

You can't take away freedom of speach, even with stupid people who think that "natural selection" dosen't happen, and that we aren't evolving.

[Dav0s]

somethings can be acceptable to argue about, the holocaust happenned and he needs to accept it.

[herulach]

somethings can be acceptable to argue about, the holocaust happenned and he needs to accept it.

Yes, but locking him up because of it? To use the previous example, should you lock osmeone up for saying the world is flat?

[Taz]

Well, he got 3 years in jail.

[TooNice]

I don't think he should be locked up for it. I find his denial pretty outrageous, but not criminal.

[5lab]

its not clear.. whats the actual law he's broken? it suggests on the right its illegal to deny hollocaust.. i guess if theres a law against it you've gotta face facts..

[RedPutty]

Well we don't have any right to free speech here and if anything that will get worse as time goes on.

I think its pretty clear from his sentence that Austria doesn't have free speech either.

I can't see how austria is any different in this respect than the other parts of the world that persecuting people for their political opinions or beliefs.

[Rave]

What's utterly ridiculous about it is that he said it in 1989 and has since changed his views. He's being locked up for holocaust denial even though he's no longer a holocaust denier.

[iranu]

What happened was David Irving said the holocaust did not happen in 1989. He was subsequently told that if he entered certain countries he would be arrested and tried with holocaust denial. One of these countries was Austria. He arrogantly went to Austria thinking that they wouldn't arrest him and got what he deserved. He pleaded guilty.

Now I would prefer him to say what he likes because I believe in freedom of speech, however, there has to be law (with regards to free speech) against certain things such as incitement to murder for example. In Austria and Germany the law is differrent due their history and the nutters who will twist anything to deny that this atrocity occured because they are a bunch of racist bastards. These countries have these laws for a reason, i.e to ensure "the final solution" never happens again, whether we agree with them or not.

Fortunately in Blighty we just look upon those with those types of views and laugh. We deride them the same way we deride the nutters who got over worked up about those cartoons.

As Orwell once said, "Why is the goose-step not used in England? There are, heaven knows, plenty of army officers who would be only too glad to introduce some such thing. It is not used because the people in the street would laugh."

[Pirate Pete]

i dont personally believe he should be charged at all for saying something like this, let alone locked away

in my opinion you should be able to say absolutely anything as long as no one gets injured (of course then there is the problem of provoking attacks)

but our freedom of speech is not really freedom if we can not say things like he did...im sure he had some kind of evidence for saying what he did

for instance, the 911 conspiracy theorists...not many people like what they are saying but there is a LARGE bulk of evidence to support their claims. If this was hidden away that could lead to extreme dangers in society

theres a group called the Revisionists who say that the holocaust was not as bad as it was made out to be and that the gas chambers were actually real showers or swimming pools

i dont see any of them getting locked away.....

[fuddam]

as Iranu said, depends on which country one says such stuff in.

as before, wouldn't have locked him up for his opinion, but can also understand that our (UK) take on it is a purely rational one. In countries like Germany & Austria, is not such a simple issue. There is major emotional & psychological baggage attached to the event, and one assumes the govts in those countries have to walk very delicately. There is no way they will tolerate their extreme right wing groups from gaining power, or even the possibility of that, due to the responsibility they carry to prevent something like nazism ever taking hold again.

It happened before, it can happen again. Unfortunately. Fascism can rise any time, as it seems to be in our politically correct times........

[RVF500]

There are deniers and apologists the world over. Japan and China have strainede relations due to a large number of the former denying the Nanking masscre (amongst other things). The Japanese view on history has sparked anti-Japnese demonstrations in China just last year. No one is getting locked up over it. Same as this guy. He shouldn't get locked up. He's a clown and should be derided as such.

But....he did think he was big enough to flout Austrian law. For that he deserves to be punished. Whether the law is an ass or not he was well aware of his actions. Locking him up seems to be somewhat over the top not to mention flying in the face of the stand taken by other european countries on freedom of speech.

Though I wonder how long it takes before some smartarse twists our shiny new terror laws to land someone in court for an unguarded or taken out of context remark?

[mike_w]

My friends and I have actually talked about this a fair bit today. While this may be an infringement on freedom of speech, there is certainly more to consider. I think that Fuddam is right about the governments having to walk a fine line - it is certainly not a decision I can be certain about.

[jesusLOL]

When a reporter asked him again if he believes the holocaust happened, he said "I dont like to put a trademark on things".

Nutter, but shouldnt be jailed for it.