The Netherlands proposes to ban the burka (full veil)

[Ben_]

superscraper a far bigger problem with capitalism as has been implemented is a cultural one, people are not willing to serve each other yet and marx accepted this, he believed we would develop or evolve into capitalist nations towards the end of the capitalist era and maybe he's right. the problem was that nations decided that the economic and cultural need not be met first and that communism could be achieved by revolution and that we would all learn/change soon enough (impatient buggers). im not sure if marx gave any room for revolution, i think he may had i cant remember (i recognise this is important ) but i know he definetely talked about the development of economies and cultures and that we would eventually grow into communism

[true786]

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
de‧moc‧ra‧cy  /dɪˈmɒkrəsi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-mok-ruh-see] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun, plural -cies. 1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
2. a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.
3. a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.
4. political or social equality; democratic spirit.
5. the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.


Im sorry, I couldnt think of a way to describe my own veiw on democracy, personaly I believe democracy is hypocracy, that is my veiw and it will never change.

To be honest, I think no matter who we vote into power, they will all follow more or less the same agenda so although it may look like we vote in a free society it is governed by a hidden group of individuals. I mean look at when Bush was voted in it their was talk of corruption.

To have what the dictionary has described as democracy we have deprived other of the same in other countries. Dont get me wrong mate, im not saying that other systems are better.

Anyways like I said you are entitled to your own opinions and I respect that, as I am, I do feel that your comments before on my religion (Islam) were over the top but then who am I to say anything?

Do you know much about Illuminati?

[superscaper]

Well I'm not a communist and the arguments about there being inequality in wealth in capitalism I agree with and I'm not debating that it would happen or not. My view is that it doesn't matter. Obviously I wouldn't be happy about being poor but that doesn't change my view that there should be a free capitalism no matter if it does mean inequality of wealth. That's kind of the whole point.

[Ben_]

in order to become wise you should constantly be changing and modifying your ideas

i dont have any economic knowledge other than the most very basic fundamentals that you could learn in 20 minutes or less (literally)

continue to listen to opinions and arguments of intelligent people and you will find many contradicitions. the more you learn the more your own intelligence will come into play as there is no easy answer to anything and there is no one more intelligent than any other person offering the complete undisputed solution. but you never know if you learn and experience and debate enough maybe you'll be able to one day but if you think you have changed your opinions/views in the past and think they are unlikely to change again you will never develop beyond where you are now

[superscaper]

Do you know much about Illuminati?

The secret historical organisation that didn't last very long centuries ago or the Steve Jackson role playing game?

[superscaper]

but if you think you have changed your opinions/views in the past and think they are unlikely to change again you will never develop beyond where you are now

I think you misread me, I said I didn't doubt they WOULD change again. I'm sorry, it was a bit of a double negative but I think grammatically correct.

[Ben_]

so 'the whole point' is that you dont actually care whether it matters or not

your view is that there should be true capitalism whether its better or worse doesnt actually matter, and thats the whole point? so your basically arguing from a religious point of view, that your way is the chosen way and what is causes doesnt matter?

[superscaper]

in order to become wise you should constantly be changing and modifying your ideas

Couldn't agree more, and what's really amazing and makes us great is that we could hear the same arguments have the same experiences and come to completely different conclusions. I may be considered nutty in my thoughts but all the better. Although I'll probably never stop being atheist (or agnostic) and never stop being scientific. But I guess everything else is up for change at any time.

[superscaper]

so 'the whole point' is that you dont actually care whether it matters or not

your view is that there should be true capitalism whether its better or worse doesnt actually matter, and thats the whole point? so your basically arguing from a religious point of view, that your way is the chosen way and what is causes doesnt matter?

No, I'm saying that ethically to me that specific argument about inequality is not necessarily a negative. Not that I don't care or "push this capitalism through and be damned to anyone it hurts". It's just the idea of everyone having equal wealth is from my perspective communism and as I said, I'm not a communist. I just don't believe that because a system is unequal in it's distribution that it's inherently wrong or unethical.

[Ben_]

Im sorry, I couldnt think of a way to describe my own veiw on democracy, personaly I believe democracy is hypocracy, that is my veiw and it will never change.

To be honest, I think no matter who we vote into power, they will all follow more or less the same agenda so although it may look like we vote in a free society it is governed by a hidden group of individuals. I mean look at when Bush was voted in it their was talk of corruption.

To have what the dictionary has described as democracy we have deprived other of the same in other countries. Dont get me wrong mate, im not saying that other systems are better.

Anyways like I said you are entitled to your own opinions and I respect that, as I am, I do feel that your comments before on my religion (Islam) were over the top but then who am I to say anything?

Do you know much about Illuminati?

sorry if my comments offended you, it wasnt intentional

what you say about 'this is my view on democracy and it will never change' without any support whatsoever displays the kind of dogmatic ignorance i despise.

id like to know more about why you think we have deprived others of democracy by implementing it ourselves?

also i dont know what you mean about all following the same agenda, this may be fairly true in most civilised countries such as our own, where liberal labour and conservative are all reasonable closely (centrally) aligned. however a party representing freedom in many countries would have a complete difference in ideology to the governing party. however i kind of agree as this party probaly wouldnt be mainstream, or wouldnt get in, unless they were lying all along. so i would agree that political change is slow if that is what you are saying.

a quite interesting point is that the extremity of islam only developed due to the extreme dogma and piety of the crusading christians, it was a reaction to this to defend their own religion. they apparently moved to this from a 'soft' position, and have remained there ever since

[superscaper]

i dont have any economic knowledge other than the most very basic fundamentals that you could learn in 20 minutes or less (literally)

So how much is that? Are we on an equal footing then, I did some economics lectures at university and was a student rep for the Durham Business School. So hopefully I know some of the fundamentals. I assumed your comment about the economics course meant you were an economist or had an economics degree.

[Ben_]

No, I'm saying that ethically to me that specific argument about inequality is not necessarily a negative. Not that I don't care or "push this capitalism through and be damned to anyone it hurts". It's just the idea of everyone having equal wealth is from my perspective communism and as I said, I'm not a communist. I just don't believe that because a system is unequal in it's distribution that it's inherently wrong or unethical.

theory and words and thoughts and ideas. your trying to defend a position from a theoretical viewpoint, and in doing so openly rejecting the practical implications. this makes your position unrealistic and untenable in reality, which is where these theories show their value, not in the mind but in operation, in practice.

[superscaper]

id like to know more about why you think we have deprived others of democracy by implementing it ourselves?

It does sometimes make me uncomfortable when the US and UK governments basically say "we want you to be democratic, so long as you don't pick a party we don't like". Also the US's history is pretty terrible at specifically removing democracies and installing dictators that will be complicit. Luckily they don't do as much of that recently.

[superscaper]

theory and words and thoughts and ideas. your trying to defend a position from a theoretical viewpoint, and in doing so openly rejecting the practical implications. this makes your position unrealistic and untenable in reality, which is where these theories show their value, not in the mind but in operation, in practice.

I can't give a "practical defence" when to me there isn't an example of it being used in practice. How could you ever make any argument for any change if you could only argue what it's like in reality when it's never been tried. I'm not rejecting your practical implications I just either disagree with them happening or I agree with them but don't agree with them being a bad thing. Maybe it couldn't work in practice, but I've not found a better ideology that I agree with based on my ethics. And I don't see what's wrong arguing from a theoretical viewpoint. I'm afraid I don't have a spare country to try it out on.

[Ben_]

and to be honest your understanding of communism and liberalism i think demonstrate very elementary and undeveloped ideas. you seem to have grasped the basic and assumed that represents the whole (or even IS the whole), in many ways this is an insult to the real exponents of these ideas who would rather their views were allowed better representation, not blind belief in the most basic and undeveloped principles on which they are based (in part). im not criticising just saying you should learn some more. perhaps read the introduction to the communist manifesto which is very good (think its the penguin edition) or even better read the manifesto if you have the patience (i dont)

[true786]

Ben,

You are welcome to despise my veiws that is fine, also I might add, I never said that I didnt have reasons to back up my own thoughts and opinions, I dont realy have the time nor is this the place to go into this type of discussion, personaly I prefer face to face discussions and this is not that. The only reason I responded to this thread was because of your comments, I found them offensive. The truth is, whilst you are very strong in your opinions and I might add you seem learned, you are very forceful in your approach to dialogue. I don't see the point in going into a debate on this matter when it seems to me that you are like me, very passionate and opinionated, the only differences is that you are willing to prove a point on here and I dont find that necessary.

Im sure you dont believe me, but I do have my own beliefs and reasons why I think the way I do. Furthermore it is interesting that you 'despise' me for not giving me reasons for my opinions yet you have been the only one on this thread to throw insults at me and at superscaper.

Im sure from someone as learned as yourself you would atleast acknowledge that that type of aproach is unlikely to encourage people to even try to listen to your veiws and opinions.

Have a good evening

Asif