RMA fault found request for postage problem.

[Hicks12]

Now i dont know the whole thing so my first thought was the £30~ was to expensive but looking at it then i can say its not. Look at royal mails site, first class non recorded is £30.62!. parcel force varies from 25-£55 so the £30 is a middle price and should be given as a refund.

I dont see how someone should be expected to check the cheapest delivery service when you could of offered city link to collect on your behalf, surely its your own fault?(scan).

Normally scan are great so im not really wanting to point at whose to blame but so far it does unfair.

[Saracen]

Please someone tell me what the customer did wrong here.

To prove under Scan's own rules, he had to pay courier charges himself to take the risk of whether the component is faulty or not.

Since it was faulty, Scan should take the risk of reimbursement right?

Am I missing something??

Well, yes. The courier charges have been reimbursed ... or rather, a figure representing a midpoint of courier charges.

My opinion on this :-

- where goods are faulty (according to Sale of Goods Act definitions), the seller is in breach of contract

- because the seller is in breach of contract, the buyer should not incur costs resulting from that breach

- in order to get goods back to the seller, carriage is necessary (andt hat word is important)

- therefore the seller should reimburse for that ..... and has.

However, we then come to insurance. Insurance is to mitigate a risk, i.e. loss or damage on transit. It isn't necessary in that the goods can be returned without it, and it's then simply a case of who incurs the risk is something goes wrong, because one party will certainly incur an expense if insurance is taken out.

Again, in my opinion, if goods are faulty (and it gets more complicated if costs are incurred before that gets decided) then either the seller incurs the costs of insurance, or they accept the risk of loss or damage in transit if they don't, but they should get to decide which.

For instance, perhaps Scan have a corporate insurance that covers them for any losses incurred in delivery/collection of goods? If so, then they'd be covered when goods are returned, so wouldn't want a separate charge every time goods are sent back. Or, perhaps some of the agreements they have with suppliers transfer such carriage risks to their suppliers, because, after all, the supplier will likely be responsible for the faulty goods to Scan? Again, their suppliers aren't going to want to pick up extra insurance costs, leaving Scan holding the baby. And thirdly, Scan may deem a £25 insurance charge as excessive in relation to the risk on goods worth, presumably, under £400, even if the risk were to be theirs. Therefore, should they not have the chance to decide to incur that charge, if they were liable for the risk, rather than having the decision made for them?

The point was made earlier about the Sale of Goods Act making the supplier responsible for costs incurred over faulty goods, and indeed, it most certainly does. But ..... only "necessary" costs.

(2)If the buyer requires the seller to repair or replace the goods, the seller must—

(a)repair or, as the case may be, replace the goods within a reasonable time but without causing significant inconvenience to the buyer;

(b)bear any necessary costs incurred in doing so (including in particular the cost of any labour, materials or postage).

EasterEEL, its just my personal opinion, but I think you may have to put this one down to experience. What I'd have done, and would suggest anyone in similar position does is ..... ask the supplier if they want insurance taken out on the goods being returned, or get them to collect. Either way, get the answer in writing.

But there's an issue, if you don't know (and can prove) if goods are faulty before they're received and tested. If you despatch them and they get damaged or lost on the way, it might be impossible to determine if they were inherently defective or not. The Sale of Goods Act says that within the first six months, they will be deemed to be inherently faulty unless the seller can establish otherwise, which they're unlikely to be able to do if they're further damaged en-route. or disappear in shipping. But after 6 months, the burden reverses so the buyer has to be able to establish that they were defective. If you've had a qualified independent examination done locally before shipping them, you might be able to do that, but if not, then the risk being covered is the buyer's and so the cost of covering it should be too.

Ultimately, if Scan won't pay the insurance element, the options are to accept that and write it off to experience, or to take it to the Small Claims Court and see if they agree with you that the cost was necessary.

[usxhe190]

So:

1. what happens if the goods are lost in transit when it is being shipped to Scan for testing, who is taking the risk of this? The customer is right or are we saying the Scan takes insurance on those goods?

2. no idea what it means on midpoint of courier charges - customer should get reimbursed fully and not some average of courier charges.

[Ph4ZeD]

So:

1. what happens if the goods are lost in transit when it is being shipped to Scan for testing, who is taking the risk of this? The customer is right or are we saying the Scan takes insurance on those goods?

2. no idea what it means on midpoint of courier charges - customer should get reimbursed fully and not some average of courier charges.

So because you don't understand what midpoint means the customer should get a full refund? Its pretty obvious, it means a refund of the average cost, ANY cost.

[Disturbedguy]

There is no point in any of us speculating or stating what should or shouldn't happen in this case.

It is SCAN's call, and has been answered by Wesley already.

[usxhe190]

So because you don't understand what midpoint means the customer should get a full refund? Its pretty obvious, it means a refund of the average cost, ANY cost.

That's why i said average.

[Saracen]

....

2. no idea what it means on midpoint of courier charges - customer should get reimbursed fully and not some average of courier charges.

Only if the charges the customer incurred are reasonable and necessary. The customer could have sent it via the cheapest courier available, or via a direct motorbike (or taxi, given the weight) point-to-point delivery. Would you expect Scan to reimburse the cost of a taxi delivery if that was what the customer chose to incur? Clearly, no.

So if the actual delivery method is disputed, and it seems it is, what Scan appear to be saying is that they'll reimburse reasonable delivery costs, but not the insurance element. It's then a case of deciding what courier cost would be "reasonable".

When I said "midpoint", it was for two reasons. Firstly, Wesley said "The £7.99 that we based the returned carriage on was actually a quote somewhere in the middle, there were actually much cheaper options." Secondly, "midpoint" is a more accurate term than "average". By "average", do you mean the mean, median or mode? Because you'll get a potentially HUGE variation in result. Most people, when reeferring to "average" mean the "mean". Or rather, arithmetic mean. But even if you mean mean, it could be arithmetic, harmonic or geometric mean (i.e. the Pythagorean means). Or the generalised mean, or more specialised averages like the Heronian mean. And so forth.

So by "midpoint" I (and, I assume, Wesley) meant ..... take the smallest we could find and the largest (for the appropriate service and cover level) and pick a value more or less equidistant from the both.

[nickp8]

By "average", do you mean the mean, median or mode? Because you'll get a potentially HUGE variation in result. Most people, when reeferring to "average" mean the "mean". Or rather, arithmetic mean. But even if you mean mean, it could be arithmetic, harmonic or geometric mean (i.e. the Pythagorean means). Or the generalised mean, or more specialised averages like the Heronian mean. And so forth.

[EasterEEL]

Thanks for the input all welcome.

I am going to put this down to experience as life is to short to take it any further than this forum and overall my experience with Scan has been good over the past seven years.

At least I now know the cheapest way to send a parcel if I don't need to insure it for much.

[Blackbadger]

It would be nice if Scan could actually show how the £7.99 figure was obtained.
I can in no way with any courier obtain anywhere near such a low rate. Using any of the websites listed in the thread, nor royal mail, DHL, Parcel force, city link, DPD etc.... The average given must have been taken between sending a empty envelope and a anvil.

It is in all parties interest if the following are clarified and maybe the answers should be attached as standard, in RMA responses as a footer or similar.

When the customer has to return a item to scan:

1) Is insurance required ?

2) Is proof of postage required ? (receipt from post office for example)

3) Is proof of delivery required ? (signed for)

4) Does scan have a preferential courier?
a) If so who is it ?
b) If "a)" is relevant.. does the customer need a special form or need to notify them of anything special regarding scan?

5) Who is responsible for the costs ?
a) If the item is DOA
b) If the item is faulty within the first 7 days (business)
c) If the item is faulty within the first month (28 days)
d) If the item is faulty within the advertised RTB warranty period
e) If the item is faulty within the products warranty period. (manufacturer?)
f) If the item is requested by scan to be returned, and to out be faulty.
g) If the item is requested by scan to be returned, however turns out not to be faulty.

6) Do scan arrange pickup of items at scans expense ?
a) Can scan arrange pickup of items at scans expense (such as DOA items)?
b) If "a)" is relevant, under which scenarios can a customer expect this to happen ?

Clearly there are many scenarios when a customer may need to return something, No doubt I have missed some. However there is little clear information (some is common sense - some is not clear at all). It won't hurt to state the obvious and the unclear, so everyone knows the correct procedures to follow and what to expect from them.

[Butcher]

I'm in the process of RMAing something at present - Scan has arranged a courier to come and collect, I'm not sure why this didn't happen for EasterEEL.

[wesleyaldred]

It would be nice if Scan could actually show how the £7.99 figure was obtained. https://www.parcel2go.com/
I can in no way with any courier obtain anywhere near such a low rate. Using any of the websites listed in the thread, nor royal mail, DHL, Parcel force, city link, DPD etc.... The average given must have been taken between sending a empty envelope and a anvil.

It is in all parties interest if the following are clarified and maybe the answers should be attached as standard, in RMA responses as a footer or similar.

When the customer has to return a item to scan:

1) Is insurance required ? End User choice, goods remain the responsibility of the End User until received at Scan in good condition

2) Is proof of postage required ? (receipt from post office for example) End User choice, goods remain the responsibility of the End User until received at Scan in good condition

3) Is proof of delivery required ? (signed for) End User choice, goods remain the responsibility of the End User until received at Scan in good condition

4) Does scan have a preferential courier? End User choice, goods remain the responsibility of the End User until received at Scan in good condition a) If so who is it ?
b) If "a)" is relevant.. does the customer need a special form or need to notify them of anything special regarding scan?

5) Who is responsible for the costs ? Depends on circumstances, far to many to mention
a) If the item is DOA
b) If the item is faulty within the first 7 days (business)
c) If the item is faulty within the first month (28 days)
d) If the item is faulty within the advertised RTB warranty period
e) If the item is faulty within the products warranty period. (manufacturer?)
f) If the item is requested by scan to be returned, and to out be faulty.
g) If the item is requested by scan to be returned, however turns out not to be faulty.

6) Do scan arrange pickup of items at scans expense ? Again, Depends on circumstances, far to many to mention
a) Can scan arrange pickup of items at scans expense (such as DOA items)?
b) If "a)" is relevant, under which scenarios can a customer expect this to happen ?

Clearly there are many scenarios when a customer may need to return something, No doubt I have missed some. However there is little clear information (some is common sense - some is not clear at all). It won't hurt to state the obvious and the unclear, so everyone knows the correct procedures to follow and what to expect from them.

Added answers within the quote

[SammEl]

Very tricky situation here, not sure about it all.

I can see both sides of the story, and not one of you is incorrect, you are both right.

A) SCAN does not want to pay the extra, what if the guy paid £60 for postage, should SCAN pay that? Of course not
B) The buyer sent what he thought was the correct way of shipping, it did cost him quite a bit, but he was covering his behind, if it went missing, he would of lost the lot.

Personally, I think you should of got in contact with SCAN before shipment to see how much they cover upto in shipping, and SCAN, you should state this CLEARLY on your website for any future problems regarding shipping if not already done so, or even better, send it out in an email automactically to all buyers who you know are sending faulty goods back.

So what would I do if I was working at SCAN and this popped up? I would make a few changes in how you tell customers about this...

Then, I would refund the buyer back half of what he paid, it's only fair and it's only right in this case, he is still LOSING money, but you are also paying a little extra to make things "right".

An extra £7.51 is not much to a business at all, infact it's pittance, and it could keep a future customer after all which would spend money that would cover the extra money paid and some.

And you'd also gain respect from it by many.

I've found your service excellent, but I did have to work a little to get it if you understand, but, many companies would just put the phone down, so I take my hat off to you in that respect.

[Oldjim]

Can I raise a small general query.
When Scan arrange collection via City Link does the responsibility for the product return to Scan at the point of collection.
If it doesn't and the responsibility remains with the customer until the article is received in good condition by Scan does the City Link collection service include insurance against loss or damage

[jim]

City Link once collected a broken hard drive from me on Scan's behalf and then proceeded to lose it. I was not held responsible for the loss of the hard drive (understandably), and was given a refund.

They just blamed City Link most of the times I tried to contact them, and consequently it took them nearly two months to give me the refund, but it did arrive in the end.

[EasterEEL]

This thread is still trundling along then.

I did ask Scan to arrange for collection when I raised the RMA request. I received an email from Scan stating:

Please return the goods to the following address clearly marking the 'RMA 203595' on a piece of paper loosely inside the parcel. Please note that proof of delivery may be required.
Returns Dept. Scan Computers, 25-28 Enterprise Park, Middlebrook, Horwich, Bolton, BL6 6PE
RMA 203595 will expire if the items are not received by 02 June 2009. Items failing to reach Scan by the deadline cannot be processed and will require you to obtain a new RMA number.

The onus being on me to ensure it was delivered successfully to Scan.

The other thing that has slightly irritated me is the suggestion that Scan refund my carriage at a mid point, that is rubbish. The cheapest carriage was £6.99 with maximum insurance of £50 though a company I had never heard of. I paid £31.53 for a 600mmx500mmx500mm 20kg package insured for £400 and nobody has yet demonstrated a cheaper price. Scan refunded £7.99 and that is not a midpoint!!