I'm getting TOO passionate about firefox

[killgORE]

we all know.. that firer0x is the_best_thing_ever.

I can't be fooked making my site work with IE. because IE is such a security risk these days...why?

I could force spyware onto most IE users. Without their knowledge !!!
Though my site does work perfectly with IE. I hate the broken nature of the IE standards because stuff has to be botched to make is visible to all. But IMO crapper.

i.e. firer0x users get sexy popdown forms when you click on search above left. But this is a css trick that i.e. can't do. The great hexus admins have provided a work around for it. But this decreases your browsing pleasure !

SOoo. The upshot is I had to break morals and make a Javascript that detects IE and then says that you need a "plugin" before redirecting to a direct firer0x installer.exe. IMO javascript is usually a no-no because of its issues. But Javascript is surely defacto now ? Its been years.

Just had to share my love of firer0x. the offending java script is currently down as I consider how nuts this is...

[Howard]

So you're going to make a website incompatible with the browser most people use? Good one

[nichomach]

My former boss just mailed me about the Firefox update to 0.9.1, and his mail reads as follows:

"Here's some top quality software design for you, and it's not Microsoft!

Mozilla Firebird 0.9.1 was released yesterday, just adding a couple of features over 0.9 and improving the update notification functionality.
Except it reports itself as Firebird 0.9 so the update funtion keeps telling you that there's an update, yep Firebird 0.9.1 which you are running! Help!!!!"

That's quality for you...

[Iain]

killgore your sentiment about firefox is to be applauded but the rest of your post is a bit close minded.

I can't be fooked making my site work with IE. because IE is such a security risk these days

Fair enough, it's your own personal site and you may not care if anyone else can read it but assuming you do want others to use it then that statement effectively means that around 90% of web users will get a poor experience on your site

I could force spyware onto most IE users. Without their knowledge !!!

Are you saying that you are knowingly going to place spyware on your site ? Since I doubt that is the case; then whilst your efforts to protect every IE user on the planet are admirable, ultimately your site is not going to stop a user picking up spyware from any other site on the web.

i.e. firer0x users get sexy popdown forms when you click on search above left. But this is a css trick that i.e. can't do. The great hexus admins have provided a work around for it. But this decreases your browsing pleasure !

But this is excellent web design. The vBulletin developers have utilised the functionality available to those browsers which have it but also provided a fully functional alternative for other browsers. A good web designer will build a conformant site in a browser like Mozilla and then apply the necessary hacks to get it to work on other browsers, principally IE, Opera and Safari. That way everyone can view the site

You have to understand that the vast bulk of people couldn't care less about an alternative browser and don't have either the knowledge or desire to use anything other than Internet Explorer since it comes with Windows. Therefore you must code for IE or you are effectively telling the vast bulk of the web to sod off. Given the new rules coming into place for site accessibility and so on then this may even become illegal although it's highly unlikely to be enforced on any site other than the large corporations.

Anyway, in short I agree that Firefox is an excellent browser but I don't agree with arbitrarily deciding to not code for the most popular browser on the web

Just my 2 pence.

P.S. nichomach, if you do a full uninstall (including the files in the ApplicationData directory of your profile) and then reinstall Firefox then that issue you mention goes away. It does explicitly state that in the release notes although I agree you should be able to upgrade without performing an uninstall first

[killgORE]

woah people.. i am more than aware of cross browser issues.. my site works perfectly for all browsers i have tested it with. I tested it heavily for a reason.. hmm. actually, i never fired up lynx.

just gets my goat that the biggest IT company doesn't comply to the standards. What if they took tcp/ip and just turned off some fields in the ip packet to make their networks different from linux ?

So you're going to make a website incompatible with the browser most people use? Good one

Yeah.. thats how it seems. But since my site is primarily accessed by people from hexus by accidentally clicking, and my friends/family. People that happen to stumble onto it. Most of these people are using firer0x, or would consider it. I think the compromise - is to simply display an extra message to IE.

I expected the reaction I got. Because I HATE things I can't browse in firer0x.Like bank websites.. They are fooking IE only. Now THATS insane. There is "the greater good for the greater many". Minorities ?

Az. Why WOULD I include spyware. Read the article I linked to. It is one of the many good reasons to not use IE. If they patched it up to make it at least standards compliant I wouldn't grumble.

This script has never gone live yet. Because I even feel that a bit of javascript makes it less browser compatible !

take it easy guys.

[Iain]

No-one is getting at you, it's a debate on whether to code for IE or not and the issues around it. I read your article and I am almost certainly more aware of browser security issues than most people on this forum. I'm quite sure if someone devoted as much time and attention to creating some spyware in Mozilla then they would manage it. The writers of such software tend not to bother as what's the point of only infecting up to 1% of the web when you can get more than 90% by targetting IE. I'm not saying IE doesn't have issues, but there are many reasons why it receives more publicity than other browsers and it's not all about how it's coded.

Perhaps you should have used less "off the cuff" comments like you can't be bothered to code for IE in your first post as I took the tone of it to mean you were advocating only designing for Firefox and to hell with anything else. Your second post makes it much clearer what stance you're taking.

There are other reasons why Internet Explorer can't be as easily modified as other browsers. There are large applications which use the engine that Microsoft have built to run their own software e.g. Siebel, Lotus Notes, etc. Unlike Mozilla (which has it's own XUL engine that will hopefully be more fully utilised in the future), these other application providers work closely with IE developers to make sure their own products are note affected by any changes to the core browser. Microsoft may need to consider splitting the Internet Explorer technology into a browser and an application framework in order to get round these issues but I'm sure that's not straightforward

[Paul Adams]

SOoo. The upshot is I had to break morals and make a Javascript that detects IE and then says that you need a "plugin" before redirecting to a direct firer0x installer.exe. IMO javascript is usually a no-no because of its issues. But Javascript is surely defacto now ? Its been years.

I hope you aren't intending to redirect IE users straight to the .exe file directly, causing a download box to appear?
If you are going to do any redirection of that kind, don't be misleading and describe it as a "plugin" (even if you are being facetious), and let the user decide to click the actual .exe link of their own volition.

If you were jesting then just ignore me, sometimes I misinterpret these things

On the javascript front, I share a similar dislike - in a perfect world every website works with every browser and does not require javascript to perform any function, though I am somewhat happier with Firefox's selective javascript filtering where resizing/moving and popup events can be filtered independently - they are the most annoying ones!

Oh, and listen to that man Az, he speaks much truth and is a man of wise words (I'd +rep the post above but I can't give him any more just yet ).

[killgORE]

Slightly off topic now.

There is speculation about "longhorn" being a properly crafted OS that is taking into account the challenge of OpenSource that just didn't exist when NT or XP was being developed - in seriousness most applications suites are now coming of age.

The speculation is that a) the browser will be optional <- yeah right.. b) more modular/configurable <- all for this. Problem is. either way the next IE major update will be whenever that comes out ! OpenSource browsers.. If spyware was created. The problems are found and discussed openly and then the community will make the appropriate updates.

Most of the issues allowing IE spy/malware have been identified for ages. Does the fact that software is automatically installed without prompting not bother people ? Doesn't it ?

I just got broadband this year - having had to suffer Uni halls without it - and so was a bit of a n00b, but had the IE settings ramped up for maximum privacy and protection, and installed appropriate firewalls and anti-virus. Ran spybot and there was all this crap that I hadn't installed. I was really annoyed.

[Twigman]

I still don't really understand why I should use firefox over Mozilla, except for a smaller footprint?

[Paul Adams]

The speculation is that a) the browser will be optional <- yeah right.. b) more modular/configurable <- all for this. Problem is. either way the next IE major update will be whenever that comes out !

Modular OS would be nice, finally with Mono there is Linux support for .NET so cross-platform is starting to become more of a practical possibility, with luck.
Windows XP SP2 makes modifications to IE like a popup blocker and a host of other security fixes (in fact, with XP SP2 you are supposed to be covered against these latest exploits of IE I hear), I realise this is OS-specific, but it is kind of a major update while we wait for LongHaul.

Most of the issues allowing IE spy/malware have been identified for ages. Does the fact that software is automatically installed without prompting not bother people ? Doesn't it ?

Yes, but paradoxically it's all about awareness - a huge number of people use computers without knowledge of anything other than how to use favourites, for example.
It's not an indication of intelligence, just interest - my neighbour is a really clued-up guy but I had a peek at his PC as he thought he might have acquired something nasty as Norton had warned him - I found spyware galore, of course. He just didn't know, until I explained the concept of it to him - he most likely wouldn't take time out to read up on it, or even comprehend an email if mass-mailed with info.

This is why (and because of) users want computers to be simple.
Collaboration tools, office suites, saving passwords, making life quick and easy - a complete nightmare for those keen on security and controlling what goes where.
"Single sign-on" is a great concept if you ask business people - but a horrible idea if you speak to security guys, as it flies in the face of what we are trying to achieve - we want things to be complex, not sign you in automatically to every service you ask for.

I think it might take something as monumental as PC manufacturers shipping PCs with alternative OSs (I know there was an attempt at this a year or so ago, but not sure if it took off) and applications - this is what it would take to get the attention of Joe Public.

[Stoo]

I still don't really understand why I should use firefox over Mozilla, except for a smaller footprint?

Because it's been redesigned from the ground up

Firefox will be the core of the next mozilla suite fork, taking over from seamonkey

[[GSV]Trig]

I like the way that when u have multiple tabs open in firefox it doesnt slow down as there all loading in there info...

Oh hang on thats why I hate Firefox...

[Iain]

Because having multiple IE windows downloading sites doesn't slow down the browser.....?

[[GSV]Trig]

Yes but on IE its different browsers so it slows the system as a whole down a bit but when u try and open 5-10 tabs in Firefox the whole lot stops.....

[Iain]

Yes, but balance the system "stopping" for around 5-10 secs against having to open each IE window individually and open a favourite. No contest.....

Also, when I try this my system runs quite happily while 7 tabs are opening and it's just a slow corporate laptop

[Paul Adams]

Yes, but balance the system "stopping" for around 5-10 secs against having to open each IE window individually and open a favourite. No contest.....

Also, when I try this my system runs quite happily while 7 tabs are opening and it's just a slow corporate laptop

This was my original reason for using MyIE2 - a single window for all the browsing sessions was very, very cool - but I found that if one site started to timeout and you had pages auto-refreshing, it stopped them all working until you cancelled the failing site.

I've not had any slowdown with Firefox used in the same way, and I still have auto-reload enabled on multiple tabs - I have, however, had firefox.exe fall over on me when clicking a link from an email (but copy/pasting the link in the browser worked), that may well be down to me attacking the registry with a big stick to remove all remnants of MyIE.exe though

With a lot of customizing, Firefox is the best browser I've used, but I needed to add a couple of extensions and change a lot of defaults to make it the way I wanted.

If seamless proxy authentication were in there, I'd seriously consider suggesting a rollout of this for the 1000 PCs here (skinned to look very much like IE so as to reduce the support calls).