The F1 2011 Thread

[Andy3536]

i guess it's a "starts charged up at the beginning of the race" type thing, because everyone has KERS available on the first lap - right? right? i honestly can't remember

They do start charged, but I thought they charged on the outlap to the grid.

From the article i linked.

The start-only system could in theory be charged in the pits before the race, therefore ensuring the drivers had use of the boost for the run down to the first corner.

I would think that's if autosport are reporting this, and people are talking about it being a possibility in the paddock. That the idea of what Autosport talk about with a 'start only' kers would be legal and possible to do.
But it also just could be the other thing they illuded to and Red Bull were having trouble getting the kers working properly before quali.

I expect with all the comotion about it Horner and Newey are chuckling to themselves and even if it's not true will try and arrange a suspicious looking cable to plug into the car

Time will tell i guess. But many teams have been struggling with kers reliability so that's not unlikely.

[MadduckUK]

ok, so with some musing over this - the one shot KERS will be great for quali, but a "proper" KERS will be better for the race itself due to usage every single lap (this presumes KERS gives in more than it takes out, which it must or teams would just not be using it). So will McLaren close the performance differential during racing conditions?

ps, i almost have the flexi-wing figured out, but the more i think about it the more bogged down i get. anyone want to compare ideas?

[kalniel]

ok, so with some musing over this - the one shot KERS will be great for quali, but a "proper" KERS will be better for the race itself due to usage every single lap (this presumes KERS gives in more than it takes out, which it must or teams would just not be using it). So will McLaren close the performance differential during racing conditions?

Well the main benefit for KERS is by far and away the race start - I think that factors very heavily into the cost/benefit analysis by the teams using it. Take that away so the comparison is between start only KERS and heavy problematic start and race KERS and cost/benefit might be different. But I'm sure other teams thought about a one shot KERS before.

ps, i almost have the flexi-wing figured out, but the more i think about it the more bogged down i get. anyone want to compare ideas?

IMHO think curling rather than direct loads. You could design something to resist a direct force, but to twist under aerodynamic forces and effect a lowering.

[MadduckUK]

Well the main benefit for KERS is by far and away the race start - I think that factors very heavily into the cost/benefit analysis by the teams using it. Take that away so the comparison is between start only KERS and heavy problematic start and race KERS and cost/benefit might be different. But I'm sure other teams thought about a one shot KERS before.

id say that is the single most noticeable use, but over x number of laps the time saved every lap would be greater.

IMHO think curling rather than direct loads. You could design something to resist a direct force, but to twist under aerodynamic forces and effect a lowering.

i was thinking of the internal structure of the wing, if it was hollow but then filled with X and the acceleration force pushing X out of the wing itself and into a container behind the wing. what X is, is the sticking point, something that is a gas at 1G but a liquid at 2.5G or so would be perfect.

[Andy3536]

ok, so with some musing over this - the one shot KERS will be great for quali, but a "proper" KERS will be better for the race itself due to usage every single lap (this presumes KERS gives in more than it takes out, which it must or teams would just not be using it). So will McLaren close the performance differential during racing conditions?

ps, i almost have the flexi-wing figured out, but the more i think about it the more bogged down i get. anyone want to compare ideas?

Well, the one shot Kers would mean no bulky system, which would mean better weight distribution. You've also not got the recharge kit on teh rear wheels effecting brake balance. But you would be open to not being able to defend your position. Who knows.
Just to add though, if it is just a one shot edeal, they've kinda crept under the radar a bit there. As the name of the device is 'Kinetic energy recovery system' and they wouldn't actually be recovering any kinetic energy???
It would just be a battery operated motor...

Flexi wing? Even the Mclaren engineers couldn't work that one out

I did notice that the rear wings all move different amounts. I thought it would be a set number of degrees it could move up. But every cars wing moves differently. Some alot more than others.

[MadduckUK]

Flexi wing?

I did notice that the rear wings all move different amounts. I thought it would be a set number of degrees it could move up. But every cars wing moves differently. Some alot more than others.

nonono, the front wing



the back wing flap will be forever known as the "letterbox" it just fits so well

[kalniel]

i was thinking of the internal structure of the wing, if it was hollow but then filled with X and the acceleration force pushing X out of the wing itself and into a container behind the wing. what X is, is the sticking point, something that is a gas at 1G but a liquid at 2.5G or so would be perfect.

Wouldn't that be illegal as it would be classed as a moveable ballast?

As the name of the device is 'Kinetic energy recovery system' and they' wouldn't actually be recovering and kinetic energy???
It would just be a battery operperated motor...

Yes, which I thought would be illegal due to the lack of generating the power from braking in the first place, but it wouldn't surprise me if they forgot to actually mandate that in the rule wording.

Flexi wing?

I did notice that the wings all move different amounts. I thought it would be a set number of degrees it could move up. But every cars wing moves differently. Some alot more than others.

We're talking about the front wing. Red Bull have a front wing which appears to flex and lower at the edges to the ground, circumventing the minimum ride height rule. However the car passes stationary scrutineering as the ride height when stationary is fine, and it passes the load tests that are designed to check for flexing. There was some argument about whether you actually have to follow the rules, or just pass the test for the rules, it was proven last year to be the latter. Red Bull actually had to add anti-skid blocks to the bottom of their front wing it's so effective.

[Andy3536]

We're talking about the front wing. Red Bull have a front wing which appears to flex and lower at the edges to the ground, circumventing the minimum ride height rule. However the car passes stationary scrutineering as the ride height when stationary is fine, and it passes the load tests that are designed to check for flexing. There was some argument about whether you actually have to follow the rules, or just pass the test for the rules, it was proven last year to be the latter. Red Bull actually had to add anti-skid blocks to the bottom of their front wing it's so effective.

It was supposed to be me going off in another subject, i realised it wasn't clear so edited

[MadduckUK]

Wouldn't that be illegal as it would be classed as a moveable ballast?

oo, well im not sure, it depends if you are caught i guess, and also if a lighter than air gas could be classed as "ballast", i would argue it cant be because the air inside the car becoming denser and moving to the rear of the car under g forces also counts as moveable ballast in that case.

[kalniel]

It was supposed to be me going off in another subject, i realised it wasn't clear so edited

Gotcha. Yes, I've noticed that as well - but I think some teams could either decide not to move it as much, or more likely it's the starting angle that's different - teams like Mercedes are getting it basically horizontal but maybe that's because the flap they're moving starts off less steep. Their wing is also being one of the more effective ones.

[Andy3536]

Commentators last year said that the wings might have made use of a different weave in the carbon.

Might explain it, i expect they were generating more downforce than anyone elses aswell.

[kalniel]

oo, well im not sure, it depends if you are caught i guess, and also if a lighter than air gas could be classed as "ballast"

How many liquids are lighter than air?

[MadduckUK]

How many liquids are lighter than air?

the tests are run with the car stationary

i expect they were generating more downforce than anyone elses aswell.

yes, but that is the result, not the reason

[kalniel]

the tests are run with the car stationary

So this phase changing material is going to held in place in the wing to the extent it can resist quite significant load testings while stationary, yet is also going to be free to move out of the wing chamber in the event of G-loading? With no moving valves etc.

[Andy3536]

The wings are very thin to have another material inside the carbon, and more downforce created by the Red Bull wing over any others would create more downward pressure on the Red Bull wing than any other car....Wouldn't it?

My head hurts.

[MadduckUK]

So this phase changing material is going to held in place in the wing to the extent it can resist quite significant load testings while stationary, yet is also going to be free to move out of the wing chamber in the event of G-loading? With no moving valves etc.

the valve could be as simple as a rubber pincer that is closed when the wing bends - which bends because the gas has moved backwards in the car under G.

The wings are very thin to have another material inside the carbon, and more downforce created by the Red Bull wing over any others would create more downward pressure on the Red Bull wing than any other car....Wouldn't it?

My head hurts.

doesn't need to be the entire internal wing structure, could just be seams in it. if it was all about downforce than a photo of the wing would enable opponents to easily see /why/ there is more downforce.