Creating a website help...?

**Whiternoise** · 27-01-2008, 01:36 PM

@Wombar - Sorry, but i disagree again.

Dreamweaver is a professional tool, so if web design is either your main "thing" or something that you do very passionately then fine, it's probably worth the money simply for the workflow aspect. But, if web design is something you only do from time to time, it seems silly in my mind to spend all that money when your homepage is basically going to be:

<html>
<head><title>My Site</title></head>
<body>
<tables..>
Stuff in the tables
</tables..>
</body>
</html>

The only reason i can see a beginner buying Dreamweaver is so for the more or less realtime update window, the ability to easily use and modify templates, etc.

And on the contrary, it is VERY important when you're building your first site. If you don't learn how to correct sloppy code early on, it will come back to bite you in the arse later on. And you will learn the basic principles a lot faster if you work out how tables work, how divs can be fiddled with to make the effect you want instead of using a WYSIWIG environment.

Obviously, you say this is how you make your living and i fully agree with you in that respect, but i don't think it's worth the money if you're starting out - mainly because there's no way a beginner is going to be able to use Dreamweaver to its full potential.

**cougarslam** · 27-01-2008, 01:46 PM

Free HTML editor wysiwyg - Alleycode HTML, Text, PHP editor , Free website testing tools - alleycode a free html editor that says it's wysywig haven't used it in a while but it has some wizard type tools may be worth looking into similar to notepad++.

if you are just after a decent looking blog maybe use wordpress (free php based cms) with a custom theme.

**Bazzlad** · 28-01-2008, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by jay_oasis

Does anyone else think there needs to be something decent between "frontpage" and Dreamweaver?

I find that anything that is in between is just really bad.

There is - notepad

**wombar** · 28-01-2008, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Whiternoise

@Wombar - Sorry, but i disagree again.

Dreamweaver is a professional tool, so if web design is either your main "thing" or something that you do very passionately then fine, it's probably worth the money simply for the workflow aspect. But, if web design is something you only do from time to time, it seems silly in my mind to spend all that money when your homepage is basically going to be:

<html>
<head><title>My Site</title></head>
<body>
<tables..>
Stuff in the tables
</tables..>
</body>
</html>

The only reason i can see a beginner buying Dreamweaver is so for the more or less realtime update window, the ability to easily use and modify templates, etc.

And on the contrary, it is VERY important when you're building your first site. If you don't learn how to correct sloppy code early on, it will come back to bite you in the arse later on. And you will learn the basic principles a lot faster if you work out how tables work, how divs can be fiddled with to make the effect you want instead of using a WYSIWIG environment.

Obviously, you say this is how you make your living and i fully agree with you in that respect, but i don't think it's worth the money if you're starting out - mainly because there's no way a beginner is going to be able to use Dreamweaver to its full potential.

I've had this discussion with many people over the years and it all depends which camp you hail from, I don't agree you NEED to learn HTML in notepad first. Some people simply learn quicker by creating something quickly that they can see and modifying it, I know I did. I learn best by getting an example and then picking it apart to see what effect it has, some people don't find this method works for them so it's all about the individual taste. Dreamweaver excels in this regard with the quick buttons to create tables, you can then pick it apart and see what happens.

I agree that the ability to create code by hand is a necessity for professionals, but for someone building their band a website, it doesn't really matter if it's not W3C compliant (just look at some of the horrendous mySpace profiles) to start with. Again, this is all down to personal preference and what you are looking to achieve. One of my friends recently built a website using a WYSIWIG editor (don't know which one) and the code was appalling, but it was a personal site made for friends and family so it didn't matter (to him or me anyway). It looked okay and that was all that mattered.

However, Dreamweaver is the industry standard (i.e. you'll find it in many of the studios in London) and Adobe offer a trial version to try before you buy, so if it's something that someone wants to do professionaly it MIGHT be worth considering (though it's very expensive), I wouldn't advise it necessarily, but it's an option. There are other WYSIWIG editors out there, but if it gets to a stage where you want a job many agencies ask for Dreamweaver as well as the ability to hand code.

Either way, there are lots of ways to achieve the same effect when it comes to web design and the individual needs to choose what works for their situation.

**Whiternoise** · 28-01-2008, 10:06 PM

As i stated in my previous post, i fully agree that it is the industry standard, and as such i don't think it would be worth the money for a total newbie - i coughed up for it so i'm not damning it at any rate. I also never actually said you need to, i merely pointed out that it is an excellent free option and i would strongly recommend it over paid-for programs.

From a non-pro point of view, i prefer making compliant websites as a number of my friends use different browsers and how my site looks to them can be completely different if my coding isn't quite right.

I also feel that this isn't going to get anywhere as a debate, so i would advise the OP to download the trial version of Dreamweaver, see if it's good for you. Then try free options, see if you like them more or less. Finally evaluate the cost of the software you're going to end up using and it will ultimately depend on how you want to code your site.

**sbj** · 28-01-2008, 10:18 PM

ok i've got dreamweaver full and am experimenting with it, made myself 3 pages so far but no clickable links yet. also looked at alleycode which looks good for learning html but not really easy to make pages quicker. If I eventually get one finished what do i look for in a webhost company, what should they really give me? my isp (virgin media) has its own webhost company Easily.co.uk - Search domain names, domain name registration, email & web hosting servers but in my custom pc mag 1&1 seem to be doing a good deal?? 1&1 Internet Ltd.

**wombar** · 29-01-2008, 02:05 AM

I used to host with 1&1 when I was starting out and their support was atrocious but this was a few years ago so they may have improved since then. I personally wouldn't recommend them but their hosting will certainly get you started and you can always move in the future.

As Whiternoise said earlier, QiQ are pretty good (I have a few accounts with them, generally pretty good for the money) and if you can catch them in one of their promotional periods, they're incredible value. You may also want to check out a company called A2B2 as they do some very good deals.

You'll find that windows servers tend to be a little more expensive because of licensing fees, I'd say stick to Linux servers unless you're wanting to do any .NET or ASP coding.

You don't need masses of space unless you want to host loads of videos and photos, 100Mb is usually more than enough (and even that is overkill for most sites). Same goes for bandwidth, you don't need much more than 1Gb to start with (if that).

**Saracen** · 29-01-2008, 05:39 AM

Originally Posted by Whiternoise

....

EDIT: Contrary to what Saracen may say, i would strongly advise against getting Dreamweaver. It's good for making fast web pages and it has plenty of templates (last time i looked), but in my opinion, you'd be much better off both headwise and wallet-wise by just using notepad.

Have a read up about code standards. Most of the sites above will teach you how to write "legal" HTML code, and it's better to get into the habit of coding to maximise browser compatibility.

Hope this helps for now. Another piece of advice is not to waste your money on books. The internet is a much better resource and you're more likely to find what you want that way.

Well, you're obviously welcome to disagree ... and if the question was about the best way to develop optimised websites, I might be tempted to agree with you provided the person doing it is prepared to invest a very substantial amount of time learning the nuts and bolts. I'd also be very much inclined to agree if the object of the exercise is to develop a strong foundation for a professional coding career.

But the OPs question was about

creating a website to publish

and

I would obviously be using a program for creating templates etc. Any ideas what are the best/easiest programs i could use?

I absolutely disagree that learning standards from the ground up and using notepad is in any way the easiest way to create a website to publish, for a complete novice. It's rather like suggesting that someone that wants advice on putting up a bookshelf should start by learning how to grow the tree to harvest the wood.

Which is why I said, twice .... "A lot depends on exactly what you're trying to do."

Even for a "professional" website, a lot depends on the situation. Not all customers, including companies, care about standards or browser compatibility. Not even all actually care about Disability Discrimination either, or even if their website complies with the new Companies Act. I have, on occasion, been specifically and explicitly instructed to ignore ALL that, and been given a few pages of text and told to get something containing that content that looks half decent up and operational as quickly and cheaply as possible. Why? Because it's seen as necessary for corporate credibility to have a website, but given the market positioning of that company and the nature of their clientèle, it is of NO marketing relevance at all, beyond providing basic data.

There is a tendency for many web professionals, and I'm not referring to any specific people here, to assume that their particular speciality has considerable business significance and it no doubt does for many companies, and is absolutely crucial for others ..... but there are also companies for whom having decent biscuits and a good blend of coffee for the refreshments during a presentation is a higher business priority. They, rightly, regard their website a bit like an insurance policy .... it's a nuisance and an expense they'd rather do without, but it's expected of them. It's like being VAT registered - it tells your customers nothing about your turnover if you are registered, but it sure tells them something if you aren't. It all depends what you want a site for.

To sbj, I'd also point out that "best" and "easiest" may well be mutually exclusive, and that I wasn't recommending Dreamweaver ..... merely pointing out that it's often regarded as the "best", but best for what?

Photoshop is probably the best image editing application, but that doesn't mean it's the best choice for everyone, partly because of cost and partly because of a complex interface and steep learning curve, and partly because it's overkill for a lot of people. Dreamweaver rather falls into that category, IMHO, too.

**sbj** · 29-01-2008, 04:38 PM

hmm yeah i get what youre saying, the thing about dreamweaver is i can create the tables, columns etc and look what the code is really like at the same time or by just a click which i think it helps, cause i look and say like "oh yeah so that code opens a table, column etc" and I think i can maybe build up the know how that way.

**Saracen** · 29-01-2008, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by sbj

hmm yeah i get what youre saying, the thing about dreamweaver is i can create the tables, columns etc and look what the code is really like at the same time or by just a click which i think it helps, cause i look and say like "oh yeah so that code opens a table, column etc" and I think i can maybe build up the know how that way.

Yes .... though obviously Dreamweaver goes a fair bit further than that.

There are also quite a few far cheaper programs that will provide a way of generating tables, etc.

But the point that some people have been making is that just because a program generates code that achieves a given result, such as creating tables, doesn't mean it's the best code. Some applications are rather inefficient at the code they create and that you can achieve a much more 'elegant' piece of code by doing it yourself from the ground up. Though personally, I find Dreamweaver pretty useful, I have no doubt that those that advocate the 'purist' approach are right in what they say - long-term, it's better. Not necessarily faster, or cheaper, or more cost-effective, and certainly not easier - but probably 'better'.

Analogies are always dangerous, because sooner or later you can push then too far. But an analogy here might be if you'd asked how to build a wardrobe.

1) If you were going to put it in a student bedsit to rent out, you'd probably buy about the cheapest, self-assembly flat-pack laminated chipboard item you could find, and I'd suggest one approach.

2) If you were well-off and refitting the bedroom of the house you were planning on living in for many years, you'd up the budget considerably and engage a high-end specialist to build and fit for you. You might even have it custom-made, and probably from solid wood. I'd suggest a different approach from 1).

3) If you were planning on a career selling designer furniture to Bill Gates, Hollywood stars or the Sultan of Brunei, you'd probably spend years learning your craft, personally select the finest rare woods and lovingly shape every single piece with hand-tools only. And that would require yet a different approach .... and different tools.

With your website creation, are you after a wardrobe for a student, a quality piece for a discerning customer or are you the Sultan of Brunei?

PS. That last sentence isn't one you'll see all that often on a technical forum. That might bring in some unexpected hits from search engines.

**Whiternoise** · 29-01-2008, 10:45 PM

Yeah, obviously it's down to the OP, i definitely agree on that, as i said at the end of my last post

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