Young Drivers are idiots.

[dangel]

I don't think young drivers are idiots at all. There's a difference between ignorance/inexperience and stupidity. Stupids exist in all age groups - just look at the amount of people who tailgate learners..

[G4Z]

I wouldn't have though you would've passed doing that - For one you accelerated past the lorry then pulled in front of him and slowed down, really getting you nowhere.

lol! I think I know which test I passed on and the actions I took on the test. It really wasn't that long ago to say it wasn't a modern test. I took it back in May 2000, really not that long ago. Yes I pulled back in front of the lorry with a good bit of distance between us, fortunately the road flattened out and he obviously couldn't maintain 70. Even if that had not been the case it still wouldn't be more than a minor infraction and certainly not an instant fail.

Not that any of that makes any difference, the point you are totally missing is that Hex's idea of a fixed rigid speed limit that must be adhered to in any situation is simply wrong and you can pass a driving test even though you broke the speed limit.

[dangel]

Ask any copper about spirit of the law versus letter. Hence why i'd avocate enforcement of law by human beings capable of reasoning versus a machine with a single metric.

Moving away from speeding - which people are obsessed about thanks to the government - would you ever cross a double white line to overtake? Or enter a cross hatched zone on the road (six points for that one)? Of course the letter of the law is that you never do.. but you'd be lying if you said you never have.

If you're *really* into rules then pop over to Germany - they love that sort of thing. Just try and sit in the outside lane on the autobahn when you shouldn't

[kalniel]

kalniel, i already try to minimise the stick effect on me (i.e. in this context, looking constantly at my speedo, not going over the limit, not going into congestion zone, not going onto those yellow lines on an intersection, not parking at the wrong place, not driving into bus lane, etc).

i try to cycle when i can - but it is pretty dangerous
i try not using a car - but it soemtimes takes long and is more expensive to catch public transport

As for trying to change/persuade the attitude of the stick wielding guy, i tried talking to him (i.e. complained, sent them a letter about driver education/road design/quality) but the guy really only wants to do it this way.

only other way i can think of is to push the guy aside so i become that guy.

You see, this and the other response to 'why don't you do something about it?' show why nothing will change. It's not at the driver level or even the enforcement level that laws are ultimately decided. It's at the government level.

The worst thing you can do to try and change it is to ignore the law (not saying the quoted poster is doing that!) If you don't agree with the current law then petition your MP. If they don't agree with you then petition their opposition. If they all don't agree with you then stand against them.

[G4Z]

Yeah great in theory but I for one know that it is indeed a waste of time petitioning government. I have contacted my MP about ID cards and I also wrote to my previous MP (before the war) about war in Iraq they both *still* disagree with me despite the fact that in both cases I am clearly right and they are obviously wrong. What more can you do when you have partisan politics where the only thing our representatives care about is their own interests and careers (apart from a few exceptions that are sadly in the tiny minority).

I say, screw it, break the law and take it to court every time. I know that's what I do whenever I get a ticket for anything (I have a pretty good success rate, out of about 5 or 6 parking tickets ever I only ever paid for 1). I was only ever done for speeding once, I should have fought that one but at the time I had other stuff going on so I just paid it. I won't do that next time tho.

[kalniel]

Yeah great in theory but I for one know that it is indeed a waste of time petitioning government. I have contacted my MP about ID cards and I also wrote to my previous MP (before the war) about war in Iraq they both *still* disagree with me despite the fact that in both cases I am clearly right and they are obviously wrong. What more can you do when you have partisan politics where the only thing our representatives care about is their own interests and careers (apart from a few exceptions that are sadly in the tiny minority).

Well I already covered that - stand yourself. Make a difference and be a politian who doesn't care about only themselves. If you're so convinced you are right then surely other people will agree with you and put you in a position where you can make a difference?

I say, screw it, break the law and take it to court every time. I know that's what I do whenever I get a ticket for anything (I have a pretty good success rate, out of about 5 or 6 parking tickets ever I only ever paid for 1). I was only ever done for speeding once, I should have fought that one but at the time I had other stuff going on so I just paid it. I won't do that next time tho.

Sounds like you don't actually want to change it for other people, and only care about your own interests.. not unlike the politicians you don't like

[G4Z]

You know, if I thought I stood a chance I might just do it but how many independents are there in parliament? like 1 or 2?

I always say I would be the best prime minister this country has ever seen, one day I might just have a crack at it knowing full well all my 'dirty' secrets will come out. And you know what I would do? Id hold my hands up, admit I did what I did, I inhaled, I enjoyed it at the time and I don't give a crap what anybody thinks.

[G4Z]

Oh yeah, and I'd have Rave for Home Secretary.

[ring.of.steel]

After being in a car, with a couple of mates that are indeed young drivers, i dont think i will be doing it again

[Rave]

Oh yeah, and I'd have Rave for Home Secretary.

Hehe cheers! I always think that I should get into politics but I have major disagreements with all three of the big parties, and I have no chance as an independent, so I guess I'll just have to lump it.

As for the original topic, young drivers clearly are more dangerous than most (the stats bear that out), partly because they're young, but mainly because they're inexperienced. Someone who passes their test aged 40 is very likely to be at greater risk of an accident than me (aged 28, had my licence for 11 years) until they gain that experience. I'm not sure what can be done about it unless you're going to make it mandatory for people to have a set number of hours of tuition- which I'm not really in favour of because it makes passing your test very expensive, and hence beyond the means of a lot of young people; you'd in effect be legislating many working class people off the road.

The one thing I am sure about is that I'm very much in favour of seeing more traffic police on the road again (and reducing the number of speed cameras, since studies have repeatedly shown that they tend, in fact, to actually increase the number of accidents on roads on which they are installed). A recent study showed that excessive speed is a contributory factor in less than 15% of accidents (and the main cause in less than 5%). Bad driving is what causes accidents. To be honest, I break the speed limit all the time, but I've only ever hit another vehicle twice, both times at walking pace. I fell off my bike twice by going too fast (*for the conditions*), and I like to think that I've learned my lesson now.

If they introduced average speed cameras all over the motorways, it'd force people to slow down, increasing the amount of traffic on own already busy roads, making congestion worse. No thanks. (Slower speeds = more time spent on roads = more cars on the road at any one time).

Slower speeds do not cause congestion at all- quite the reverse, in fact. The faster the traffic is travelling, the further apart the vehicles need to be to maintain a safe distance. There's a reason why they have rolling 40mph limits on the M25 at busy times- it's because when the traffic gets heavy, it has more chance of keeping moving if everyone keeps to a slow and steady speed. Motorway tailbacks at busy times (if there are no obvious causes like accidents or roadworks) are caused by people going too fast and having to brake to avoid hitting the car in front. This causes a chain reaction- the car behind then has to brake a bit more, and so on and so on until 20 cars back down the line they roll to a halt. In fairness, I don't think I've ever seen the 40mph limit signs actually make a difference, but that's because they put them in too late or because people ignore them.

[directhex]

Slower speeds do not cause congestion at all- quite the reverse, in fact. The faster the traffic is travelling, the further apart the vehicles need to be to maintain a safe distance. There's a reason why they have rolling 40mph limits on the M25 at busy times- it's because when the traffic gets heavy, it has more chance of keeping moving if everyone keeps to a slow and steady speed. Motorway tailbacks at busy times (if there are no obvious causes like accidents or roadworks) are caused by people going too fast and having to brake to avoid hitting the car in front. This causes a chain reaction- the car behind then has to brake a bit more, and so on and so on until 20 cars back down the line they roll to a halt. In fairness, I don't think I've ever seen the 40mph limit signs actually make a difference, but that's because they put them in too late or because people ignore them.

safe distance? in the bmw lane? you're having a laugh, right?

[iranu]

For the misguided few who think that speed is the determining factor in accidents then read this. Speed cameras: the twisted truth - Telegraph

Even the governments own statistics prove that speed is not a factor most accidents. Initially, a key part of the debate was focused on how the government could justify its inflation of the report's 7.3 per cent finding into a claim that speed caused a third of all road accidents. The TRL itself argued, in an attempt to support the government, that speed was also a factor in many accidents listed under other headings, such as careless driving or sudden braking.

Smith and other critics pointed out that this was given the lie by the TRL's own report. Not only did it cite excessive speed as the "definite"' cause in only 4.5 per cent of accidents, but it found that speed was a "probable" or "possible contributory factor" in only 8.2 per cent more. Not only was the government thus bending the truth; it had brought pressure on the TRL to give a wholly misleading picture of its own findings.

I used to do an 80 mile each way commute on the M4. I have seen people reading books whilst eating an apple, writing/reading reports, reading newspapers, shaving, putting on make up, rolling cigarettes, texting, eating breakfast from a cereal bowl on their lap, brushing their hair, tying ties, people chatting to a passenger oblivious to what's going on and probably more than I can remember.

So what was the common factor in ALL of the above? Gold star to the first to guess.

As a serial motorway speeder I'd welcome a massive increase in road traffic police on the motorway (as would everyone I know). If they clamped down on middle lane hogging and people who don't keep their distance then motorway driving would be faster, safer and a damn sight more pleasant.

[Howard]

Moving away from speeding - which people are obsessed about thanks to the government - would you ever cross a double white line to overtake? Or enter a cross hatched zone on the road (six points for that one)? Of course the letter of the law is that you never do.. but you'd be lying if you said you never have.

Can't say I've ever done either to my recollection, there's generally a good reason for them both. I.e that if you get stuck in the crosshatched zone you'll be blocking traffic if your lights change, and the double-white lines are generally used on roads where overtaking is a risky feat in a car with the ability to accelerate at less than warp speed, heh

[dave87]

Or enter a cross hatched zone on the road (six points for that one)? Of course the letter of the law is that you never do.. but you'd be lying if you said you never have.

(EDIT- reread it, you said cross hatched zones, sorry my bad.)

Hatchings in general - Unless the cross hatchings are bordered by a single solid white line, then you can use them if you wish. (according to my advanced riding observer). For instance coming off a roundabout, if I can accelerate past a car safely with a view down the road, without breaking the speed limit, and it is safe to do so (ie not covered in oil, got someone broken down sitting on it) then I can.

Six points though? don't think so. Unless its bordered by a solid white line.

[directhex]

(EDIT- reread it, you said cross hatched zones, sorry my bad.)

Hatchings in general - Unless the cross hatchings are bordered by a single solid white line, then you can use them if you wish. (according to my advanced riding observer). For instance coming off a roundabout, if I can accelerate past a car safely with a view down the road, without breaking the speed limit, and it is safe to do so (ie not covered in oil, got someone broken down sitting on it) then I can.

Six points though? don't think so. Unless its bordered by a solid white line.

cross hatched as in box junction

[dangel]

Actually my bad - i did mean hatchings with a solid white line (my apologies) which does attract six points. But sure, box junctions - we've all been caught on one even though the law says you shoudn't enter unless you can exit. But stuff happens which you can't always take account of - and hence we need reasoning and (dare I say it) common sense.
The point is that although you need rules of the road they simply aren't as black and white as some would have you believe. I suspect most of us know the difference between taking the pee and applying common sense. This is what a policeman can distinguish and this is why nobody here would doing anything but avocate putting more of them on the roads versus dumb-ass speed cameras which do bugger all to lower the death rate.