I'm in favour of students not paying for their education per se, but for their living costs should definately come out of their own pockets. In this case, the government seems to have it backwards, paying out for cost of living and expecting the students to pay for their tutition!
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This is bunny and friends. He is fed up waiting for everyone to help him out, and decided to help himself instead!
Signed purely because I feel that university and further education should not be as expensive as it is, I'm fine with the cost of living but the fees take the piss, especially when I know my foreign housemate pays something like £12k per year on them, and I pay £3.....no wonder my uni is full of non english students (that is not a snide comment, more an observation as I know there are courses that are solely populated by foreign students)
University fees are too small as it is... Do you realise how much it actually costs? You are only paying a fraction of the true cost... The more the fees are the less time wasters will go to uni
If you don't value the education at £20k (or however much the total is) then don't go to uni... Go and work in the mines or something
(I am currently at uni in my 4th year)
The problem is , a good chunk of those uni leavers will be higher than average earning, paying more in income tax to begin with and contributing towards the tax kitty more than the average non-professional will. Why should these people have to pay student fees too?Originally Posted by SiM
University fees are too small as it is... Do you realise how much it actually costs? You are only paying a fraction of the true cost... The more the fees are the less time wasters will go to uni
If you don't value the education at £20k (or however much the total is) then don't go to uni... Go and work in the mines or something
(I am currently at uni in my 4th year)
As for "more fees = less time wasters going to uni", hell no! Many many parents will pay whatever it costs to shaft their kid to uni, and waste plenty of time regardless of how much they paid.
I think its insane that they really want "50%" of people doing a degree by some year or another. Talk about how to devalue the degree (and the courses in some cases)!
That tax money is for other things too... not all graduates will get pay more tax, even if they have had the same education, but they should pay the same amount in fees
Yeh, there will still be some people who go to uni regardless of cost, but there will be still less time wasters...
Not all of the degrees will be equal though!
Not all, but a huge majority will pay more into the system. Its not unrealistic at all.
Doesnt matter if degrees are equal or not, more degrees in total do devalue the degree. Employers already are having a field day seperating the english degree grad from the sociology degree grad for office jobs.
Oh? So which one gets the job then?
What we have here is a horrendous example of government intervention. Degrees are subsidised to a massive extent, increasing demand for them, meaning that we have more people studying at university than we, or rather the economy needs. We have a skills surplus in some areas but chronic deficits in others such as traditional trades due to over subsidisation.
I'm all for people studying anything they want as long as they pay for it and are willing to accept that they may not be able to get a high flying job pursuing their chosen subject.
If people need subsidies then there's always the option of grants from industry. For example some law firms offer the fees for a law conversion in return for the individual's labor for a year. The same could be extended and would work for medicinal degrees.
I'm glad I live in Scotland. I'm currently doing an HND at college and I'm off to Uni at the end of this year hopefully. Thankfully I wont have to pay a stupid amount of student fees!Sucks don't it CMC.
Really we should lobby to abolish student fee's altogether, but looks like the government is doing sweet FA in this country at the moment except suck more money out of the student and money-making population
I disagree with that statement, what we really have is a society that over-inflates people's sense of self worth. We're told from an early age, we can achieve anything we want if we just apply ourselves and that the golden dream is there for the taking.
It's simply not true, we need to accept that yes, some of us will never get above call centre minion, some of us will never be a project manager. People need an education system that finds what someone is good at and moves them towards it, rather than an education system that lets you learn what you feel like or want to learn.
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This is bunny and friends. He is fed up waiting for everyone to help him out, and decided to help himself instead!
That's part of the government intervention to try and get more people into higher education. Things like targets to move people into higher education show quite blatantly that the government is trying to increase this "feeling of self-worth" and it apparently wins votes. This seems to be achieved through advertising campaigns and massive subsidisation of degree courses. These targets need to be removed as well as subsidies and advertising campaigns. They distort the decision making process resulting in over consumption of higher education.
I believe that people have the right to learn about whatever they wish, as long as they are willing to front the cost of it themselves and not expect others to fund a degree [which ultimately should be about your passion] on their behalf.
I enjoy tinkering with hardware, it's a hobby, do I expect the taxpayer to fund that hobby? No. It's the same with a degree, you continue study because you believe that you can earn more from it or because you enjoy it. You gain the greatest benefit and therefore it seems appropriate that the student pays the cost of it.
/Signed, I never bothered applying for a grant this year, but now my dad is retired I should get a reasonable amount next term, at the minute I'm living off my loan, which is depleting rather quickly
I'm in the fortunate position that the only loan I took was to cover the tuition fee (3k/year), as my parents had planned for my university education since the age of about 11.
However, not all people's parents are willing/able to do that, and as such I think it is very difficult for the government to create a system whereby it fairly distributes loans and grants to the uni going population. The current system which burdens individuals with debt and bases their amount on the parents income is the best of a set of systems that it has followed. ("Democracy is the worst system devised by the wit of man, except for all the rest" has an interesting parallel with the uni funding schemes.) However, it should be considered that it is a lot better than the comparable US schemes where University is still the realm of the elite/rich, especially for the top institutions, Yale, Harvard, MIT.
So, whilst I disagree with how the system works, I fail to see the point in attempting to get the changes backdated (as it would take too long to be of any real benefit) and say lucky you to the new generation of undergraduates, you'll have a marginally easier time. How much of the time does the average student spend contemplating what extra stuff he/she could buy if only they'd had that extra cash. Without a shadow of a doubt most of my mates would have ended up spending it down the pub or on another holiday (one of them had 4 holidays in a single summer, all on the loan/bursary he was awarded, so its not impossible).
Just my thoughts, anyway. Feel free to ignore.
Thats one of the truest things i have read. A huge amount of students fall into this category.I disagree with that statement, what we really have is a society that over-inflates people's sense of self worth
I had to pay for my further education myself and i am glad i did. My family didnt have enough cash to bail me out everytime i wanted another pint.
I learnt whilst doing a full time job. That has left me earning good money and qualified so to say you have hit a nerve' is an understatement and a reflection on how many students want a free lunch and hard working people to foot the bill!
Your comments: I do work Blitzen thank you very much. - Obviously not enough or you wouldn't be going cap in hand for more taxpayers cash
Ooh, seems to have hit a nerve with some - Yes you have. I dont want to pay for your further education. You want it. You pay for it.
All the money you earn goes on living - Welcome to the real world. So does everyones elses
I want to be self-reliant - So wanting more money from the state and taxpayers is being more self reliant is it?
but anything to make my life easier during my time here will be great - You have hit the nail right on the head. You want an easier life and let others pay for it. Dont we all. I would like a bigger car to make my life easier but im not begging someone to buy me it. I will work and earn it!
The fact is, no matter what you are doing at University, there is no reason why other people should pay for the priviledge.
Some (very few) do worthwhile courses. If by some chance you end up on big money, then you would be earning probably more than the people that paid for your education. Do you think thats right?
Seems to me that the people that want a bigger slice of cash so they can go to further education are the ones that are confident they will never do well enough to pay it back. If the Uni course was worthwhile then the money should flood in and the loan repayments should be easy to make. If that not the case then maybe you need to think about how worthwhile your course really is?
Spot on!University fees are too small as it is... Do you realise how much it actually costs? You are only paying a fraction of the true cost... The more the fees are the less time wasters will go to uni
If you don't value the education at £20k (or however much the total is) then don't go to uni... Go and work in the mines or something
(I am currently at uni in my 4th year)
Oh come on!The problem is , a good chunk of those uni leavers will be higher than average earning, paying more in income tax to begin with and contributing towards the tax kitty more than the average non-professional will. Why should these people have to pay student fees too?
You dont seriously believe that do you?
Most of the courses/qualifications from Universities these days aren't worth the paper they are written on and certainly cant be classed as academic/technical.
And btw....My Mrs has a PHD in Electronic Engineering and she didnt scrounge off the state to get it either. She saved her money.
Last edited by Blitzen; 13-02-2008 at 10:26 AM.
streetster (13-02-2008)
the thing is historically uni leavers earn a lot more than the non uni people. Thats not to say however that anyone earning 50k must of been a graduate.
So the argument is that a lot of the taxes that are in place have alluded to fund you for this.
What really sickens me is how its going to be a case of the type of university you can get into, depends on how much money you have. As the awful ones will offer larger 'grants' from the tutition fees.
it would of been much simpler to not fiddle with the system, and not fund pointless degrees.
To say that we'd be better off with fewer physics, maths, chemistry, engineering grads is folly in the long run
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Which really leads onto the point i made earlier. I agree. We need more of these as the brain drain continues. (lets face it...these are the areas where the high earning graduates mostly come from and not the pointless subjects that alot of universities promote).To say that we'd be better off with fewer physics, maths, chemistry, engineering grads is folly in the long run
Im sure you would agree though, what we certainly do not need is more people studying non-academic subjects as this is where my gripe is and where the real scroungers seem to lurk.Seems to me that the people that want a bigger slice of cash so they can go to further education are the ones that are confident they will never do well enough to pay it back. If the Uni course was worthwhile then the money should flood in and the loan repayments should be easy to make. If that not the case then maybe you need to think about how worthwhile your course really is?
I would be all for giving Doctors, scientists, teachers, nurses, dentist, civil engineers etc free tuition at University provided they stayed within the UK for a certain amount of years after graduating so the can 'repay' society with their knowledge.
Anyone who falls out of those kind of categories should get nothing.
Last edited by Blitzen; 13-02-2008 at 12:01 PM.
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