There is value is teaching them that there are many different religions, what the main holy texts for each are, the main religious figures, relevant history to the country its being taught in. Thats it. Nothing more. The contents of the Bible, the Koran or Old/New Testaments and assorted other religious literature should not be taught in school. That would basically be teaching them the teacher's personal translation of those ... They hold absolutely no value.Originally Posted by directhex
All Hail the AACS : 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
You can't teach about religions without discussing the contents of their holy texts and teachings, and in many respects it is these which define a religion, more than just the name, figures and history with respect to the country.
I get your point, however, that it is not a secular teacher's place to interpret the material, and I'm sure someone will be along soon to comment that no person, not even religious leaders, can do anything but make personal interpretations
Probably the best compromise would be for the actual religious leaders (christian clergy, imams, monks, rabbis, and so on) to visit and speak of their religious beliefs and teachings, and offer to answer questions.
i'm pretty sure my school was being completely secular when it invited a group called "friends of israel" to give a talk for (mandatory) general studies lessons in the 6th form. the only religious group to do so. *cough*
If they were all given an equally SHORT time to talk about it, then thats fine. But I think they would be hard pressed to find enough people to do such regularly for anything other than the top 3 (maybe 4 at a stretch) religions making it pretty skewed before it started. Best way to avoid that, don't have any of them wasting children's times at school.
If parents want their children to have religious values, they have plenty of time outside of state funded institutions of education to do that.
All Hail the AACS : 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
And it is here that we enter into a debate between state responsibility, personal freedom, and parental responsibility and control.
From a personal freedom point of view, people should be able to select whatever belief system they desire (within ethical limits). From a parental responsibility point of view, they are required to develop a child's morality, yet on this and on many other matters, parents can often undermine state responsibility and, more importantly, personal freedom. From a state responsibility point of view, it needs to promote cultural understanding and integration, allow for personal freedom, but respect parent's desires to raise their children as they deem fit (again within certain limitations).
Is teaching people of other's religious beliefs really wasting people's time?
To be quite honest, such an idea is a little worrying. Whether you approve of religion or not, understanding other people's beliefs helps you interact with them and reduces racial tensions. And although many people here wish to deny this fact, it is true that holding spiritual beliefs is, for many people, a great source of comfort and strength, and does not automatically make a person's other actions and thoughts compromised.
And as a final counterpoint, it is impossible to critique something without really understanding itBy hiding any religious belief, it also encourages the mystique associated with it, making it a likely source of rebellious following. Surely it is better to understand and debunk if you disapprove of religion, than to hide and imply fear of their ideas?
Teaching them that there are other religions with beliefs different to their own is fine. Teaching which texts, who their main figures are, short concise history are fine. Delving into the contents of those texts or how those people interpret them is an absolute waste of time. It is nothing but personal interpretation - personal interpretations of religious text have no place in a school.
All Hail the AACS : 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
I disagree - dealing with the texts can be of incredible benefit.
For one it increases understanding of something that, like it or not, children are going to exposed to regardless of where they go. Increased understand will lead to a better ability to personally determine your own best course of action, which is what you want isn't it? Not to mention that interpretation is heavily intertwined with the concise history and the important figures throughout that history.
Additionally, assuming that *encouragement is given to the ability to question and interpret*(this appears to be the main point of contention), analysis of religious text can give great benefits to cognitive ability, ie., the ability to question and interpret.
I would add to that 'the ability to identify and disregard fantasy' to that as well, however we all know that faith schools do not look at religious texts critically. They didn't even do that in my state 'secular' school.
HEXUS FOLDING TEAM It's EASY
I went to a Roman Catholic School, my passport says im Roman Catholic
I got a G in Religious Education
The thing is, when one of those children leaves the school, or even just steps out side the zealot community. They will quite quickly realise the in-accuracies in what they've been taught.
The problem is, what will that do to them when a large section of their beliefs and 'learned' morality is seen by them to be wrong? Denial? Or a complete disregard for what they've been taught (even the elements we'd approve of) as been part of the lies they know realise they've been taught.
Its the same way someone who's drugs education was the lies that all these bad things will happen, often has trouble when they find out actually they don't and drugs are good recreation, all of a sudden the (valid) negative points get thrown away as propaganda. Physcologists have a loverly term for this, when someone suddenly realises they've been lied to and re-question everything they've been told, which i can't for the live of me think of.
throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)
I am perfectly able to understand the world in an objective fashion through the scientific method. Since that method is wholly objective because it uses methods that are testable and importantly, falsifiable. There is no position for faith/spiritual nature in science for that very reason. This is why it concerns me that even a small percentage of faith schools are teaching the faith as if it's based on scientific method. It's not. Secondly, once you invoke faith/spirituality to explain the material world then effectively you can derive anything, make anything up. eg:
The sky is blue because the FSM fought Thor with nunchucks and Thor lost, his hammer falling from his hands and splitting the sky asunder. You cannot prove otherwise so it must be true.
The problem with very young children, as seen in the first 10 mins of the programme is that, firstly, they are young and therefore cannot form well informed opinions because they lack the experience. Secondly, they cannot make their own choices (specifically on the science issue) because only one side is put to them. Combine this with the indoctrination, and I choose that word carefully, because no other choice, be it Islam or any other religion, was taught, they are unable to make any judgement.
Now the vast majority of people including those who send their children to faith based schools do not want brainwashing, however, it was clear from the programme that some fundamentalist Christians do. I think it is the duty of the state to ensure that vulnerable people in society have a degree of protection and this includes children at PRIVATE faith based schools.
Lets assume that there are a small number of people in the UK who want their children to be bought up to hate black people. Should a private racist school be permitted to teach that ideology simple because their parents want it?
Watch the programme. You need IE7 and mediaplayer 11. It's available until Monday.
These children are young. They are being taught one side and one side only even in science. There is NO objectivity. Surely you can see that this is bad or is objectivity a one way street?
No one here is suggesting cutting off children from religious discussion / education. Infact going completely secular IS the best way for that discussion to take place because it allows that very debate. In a faith based school that particular faith takes precedence, how could it not? It means that all other religions automatically become less valid, therefore how can a proper discussion debate take place?
I have no problem with people sending children to faith based schools. What I do have problems with is firstly, that the objectivity of other religions/ideas is lost because of the daily overriding teaching of the faith the school is based upon. Secondly the school must teach science as science and not introduce god/faith/spirituality because that is not teaching science that is lying for (insert prophet here).
Right let's also dismiss the idea that Secularism is anti-religion. It is NOT. Look at any secular society and you will find that it allows equally for worship of any belief as long as the actions in worshipping that belief do not break the law. Secularism is the very protector of all religions for that very matter, no one gets preferential treatment. Contrast and compare with those countries that are not and you will find persecution, segregation etc.
Infact I've just argued against myself with regard to my above statement; "I have no problem with people sending children to faith based schools". On the premise above l will have to consider that statement because it is a minority abusing that freedom. Perhaps I should say I have no problem with people sending their children to faith based schools as long as those schools are regulated so as to avoid the problems we saw in that programme. Secular schools promote the objectivity, discussion, protection, understanding and integration I am taking about and Fuddam should be able to see this too.
"Reality is what it is, not what you want it to be." Frank Zappa. ----------- "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." Huang Po.----------- "A drowsy line of wasted time bathes my open mind", - Ride.
I am watching it now, I just saw the bit with the science test and so far with what I have seen I am shocked. Not entirely surprised that these morons brainwash (I am using that word after watching it, this afternoon I might have said indoctrination but from what I see right now that word is nowhere near strong enough) kids in this manner, but I am shocked the school passed any kind of inspection.
Last edited by G4Z; 22-05-2008 at 09:47 PM.
HEXUS FOLDING TEAM It's EASY
There is no problem with faith schools. But maybe the problem is in the curicculum they are allowed to teach? Banning these schools would be a grevious injustice to the children. We would be doing them a disservice.There are 45 of these schools in Britain and they tend to get their "learning" material from the US. There was also some heavy indoctrination of young children too. It was sickening to watch. So how can these schools be peddling this nonsense and be within the national curriculum as a lot of people have stated here. Why aren't school inspectors closing places like this or do they not have any jurisdiction over private faith schools? Bear in mind also that Blair wanted more faith schools, it seems there is a back door to teaching this rubbish and at a very early age too.
If the curiculum was robust and enforced then these situations would be non issues.
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