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Thread: Muslims, Islam and violence.

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    No more Mr Nice Guy. Nick's Avatar
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    Muslims, Islam and violence.

    Now before anyone goes off half-cocked and starts accusing me of racism and the like, this has NOTHING whatsoever to do with ANYONE'S colour or nationality, this is purely about religious beliefs.

    I'm getting somewhat confused and more than a little worried over the reaction of several, several thousands followers of the Muslim faith to these cartoons published in the Danish press.

    Over the past few years, pretty much since 9/11, I've listened to reasoned debate and believed the Muslim spokepeople when they've said that Muslims are on the whole an understanding and moderate group of people.

    So why burn the Danish consulate then?

    Why walk the streets of London with placards announcing "Slay the non-believers" and "Kill the offenders of the Prophet"?

    As usual, 'spokepersons' and 'religious leaders' have doen their thing of distancing themselves from all this and saying that it's an extremist minority, but I'm finding that increasingly hard to believe.

    The estimated 15,000 that burnt the Danish consulate and then went on to storm the Norwegian consulate and just generally smash it up don't seem like much of a minority to me... and I'm ALWAYS wary of anyone who chooses to hide his face whilst demonstrating in this country... why hide your face unless you've either got something to hide or fancy breaking the law?

    As I see it, the problem we have is that if we make any moves to curb this behaviour, the LAW will be branded as anti-Muslim, and then we've got real problems...

    It seems that there is an increasinly large number of Muslims who fancy having a go at anyone who so much as questions the faith... but surely any faith worth it's salt can stand up to a bit of questioning?

    And as for ridiculing the Prophet, well, that's the way fo the world now. The Christian faith has had Jesus and God made the butt of jokes for YEARS, in fact just about any religion I can think of has been made the subject of some joke or other, yet you don't see their followers running off to set fire to flags and torch an embassy or two.

    Perhaps the Muslim faith is open to too much interpretation, or perhaps, as I suspect more, the various religious leaders have done an appallingly bad job at curbing and controlling the so-called 'extremists'?

    We're always hearing about how we should be a TOLERANT multi-cultural, multi-racial society, and I have absolutely NO problem with that at all, to be perfectly honest I don't regard colour as an issue, I couldn't care less what colour someone is... And as for different religions, me being about as religious as a brick means I'm perfectly happy with whatever faith you are... I simply don't care.

    But when your faith dictates that the 'un-Godly' shall be killed, then I have a MAJOR problem, with you and your faith.

    I mean, come on, get a grip. I think it's time to gain some perspective on this cartoon issue. It's just a few cartoons. A tolerant, balanced religion would either just ignore it or perhaps demand and expect an apology... and they'd probably get it too.

    I think that those who say they are the Muslim religious leaders all across the world need to get a serious grip on their followers... they're out of control and very, very dangerous. Appearing on TV and distancing yourself from the violence, saying that most Muslims are peaceful is just not good enough. 15,000 rioters isn't an extremist minority... that's the activist section of a major religion.

    FOOTNOTE:

    I've just heard on the news about a Muslim girl fighting her school to allow her to wear the full Muslim clothing that completely covers her up. The school made some consessions to allow the girl to be covered up in line with her religion but she's decided that's not good enough and wants to go the whole way.

    The school has won the case in county court but being told 'No' isn't stopping this girl, who is taking her case to the High Court.

    So let me get this straight: In a country that actively preaches tolerance and integration of varying cultures, a follower of a religion that claims to have few extremists is, despite having concessions made in her favour, now taking her school to court at the taxpayers expense so she can wear what she wants?

    Sorry, if I was the judge my answer would be a firm 'No'. If the school is good enough for her to choose it to learn in, if our education and health system is good enough for her to take advantage of AND considering the school has already made concessions in its uniform policy EXPRESSLY for her, then she can either give a bit herself or find a school that will allow her to not budge an inch.

    It's pretty simple, both sides to to exercise a bit of 'give'... This country will NEVER be a peaceful place to live unless we ALL practise a bit of tolerance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dareos View Post
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    Lovely chap dangel's Avatar
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    "But when your faith dictates that the 'un-Godly' shall be killed, then I have a MAJOR problem, with you and your faith."

    ...but it doesn't. Not at all. Islam teaches much the same as Christianity (not shocking as both religions are derived from Abraham) and any distortion of that comes from people using it for their own purposes (sadly).
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    Senior Member kalniel's Avatar
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    Agreed, it *is* still a minority that are distorting things.

    Yes, maybe 15000 took place in demonstrations that also took place at the same time as the embasy was being burned. But how many of that number actually wanted to burn it and how many wanted to just protest outside it?

    It sounds the same even in the protests in london - there has even been dismay felt by many of the peaceful protestors at the actions of a few.

    Besides, when you have violent minorities it takes a very brave majority to prevent them from acting. Imagine a peaceful protest in NI being spoilt by some paramilitaries starting something - would you dare stop them? Even if these people had the same believes as me I wouldn't put it past them to 'punish' me for getting in their way.

    It is the minority that are being completely hypocritical in this situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    Now before anyone goes off half-cocked and starts accusing me of racism and the like, this has NOTHING whatsoever to do with ANYONE'S colour or nationality, this is purely about religious beliefs.
    So you're just anti-muslim then?
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    No more Mr Nice Guy. Nick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dangel
    "But when your faith dictates that the 'un-Godly' shall be killed, then I have a MAJOR problem, with you and your faith."

    ...but it doesn't. Not at all. Islam teaches much the same as Christianity (not shocking as both religions are derived from Abraham) and any distortion of that comes from people using it for their own purposes (sadly).
    Admittedly, I worded that incorrectly... You are 100% correct in that the interpretation by some is using the Muslim faith to that effect.

    And this is my concern, that a faith should be used in such a way.

    And badass, no, how am I anti-Muslim? I'm questioning the faith and how it is being (seemingly regularly) distorted which seems, to my mind, be against all the principles of any faith with regard to tolerance, peace and kindness to one another.

    Where have I said that I'm 'ant'i any faith?

    I've stated that I'm not religous myself and that's my choice. As far as I'm concerned, people can practise whatvere religion they believe in as long as they don't force that religion on others or harm others whilst practising it.

    And my footnote was an example of the apparent lack of tolerance by the minority towards the majority. Perhaps it is that integration and tolerance is not possible... Unless both 'sides', as it were, give a little, then it obviously isn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dareos View Post
    "OH OOOOHH oOOHHHHHHHOOHHHHHHH FILL ME WITH YOUR.... eeww not the stuff from the lab"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    And my footnote was an example of the apparent lack of tolerance by the minority towards the majority. Perhaps it is that integration and tolerance is not possible... Unless both 'sides', as it were, give a little, then it obviously isn't.
    As long as when you say the minority you mean the minority of Muslims. The majority are as horrified by this as anyone else.
    Christians still are capable of being as bad. The difference is the christian fundamentalists have more power in the west.
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    No more Mr Nice Guy. Nick's Avatar
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    In the context of the girl and her refusal to budge on the issue of clothing, I'm not talking about her specifically but using it as an example of how intolerance and refusal to make concessions can happen both ways.

    In her particular case the school have made allowances which she feels aren't enough. She wants it all her way which, if we all want an intergrated society, isn't reasonable.

    So there I may be talking about one particular Muslim, but I'm using it as an example of how intolerance isn't necessarily generated by the majority of a population, regardless of the majority's faith or beliefs.

    In the case of the demonstrations, 15,000 is hardly a minority, is it?

    Certainly, there are radicals that will incite others and there's no way 15,000 people can all have a hand in the violence but this isn't an isolated incident.

    The problem that Muslims now face is that of their religion being seen as overly and viciously reactive to any criticism of any sort.

    It appears that Muslim religious leaders have little if any control over the followers they represent.

    I can't think of any Christian faith reacting in a similar way at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dareos View Post
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    Now with added sobriety Rave's Avatar
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    Hang on, am I missing somthing here? I thought that the three embassies were burned in middle eastern countries (where, obviously, muslims are the majority)?

    As for the muslims carrying placards like "burn in hell infidels" in central London- I have a simple solution for them all. If you don't like free speech, piss off to Iran or Saudi Arabia.

    The story about the girl taking her school to court sounds very much like the Shabina Begum case to me- is it genuinely a new story, or are the media now casting around for sticks with which to beat muslims in general?

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    No more Mr Nice Guy. Nick's Avatar
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    Are you suggesting I'm Muslim bashing?

    If so you've missed the point of my original post!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dareos View Post
    "OH OOOOHH oOOHHHHHHHOOHHHHHHH FILL ME WITH YOUR.... eeww not the stuff from the lab"

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    There are a billion and a half muslims, most of whom are very much more dedicated to their religion than your average christian. A lot of these live in areas of the world that are already hotspots for violence and where life is more ephemeral. Lebanon where the riots you mention are is hardly a stable country that has suddenly become unstable due to a few offended muslims.
    15k out of 1.5 billion *is* a minority. One school girl *is* a minority but they are held up as representatives of all 1.5 billion which is sad.

    Note I dont agree with the girl or the protestors or rioters but am amazed at peoples inability to discern that people who share common beliefs or culture are not one single entity.

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    Sorry meant to say, in a sentence are you proposing that muslims are more violent than other faiths? More intolerant?

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    Maybe Muslims are more violent, look at where the majority of them come from, places where violence is a way of life, an everyday thing....

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    Taz
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    I am a British Muslim.

    a) I am not violent. I am against all forms of violence (including wars and all insurgent activity).

    b) My family, my Muslims friends and myself are totally outraged by the mindless so-called Muslim thugs that were waving offensive placards around outside the Danish Embassy. A peaceful protest would have been the right reaction to the cartoons.

    c) I flew to Copenhagen, Denmark, last night on business. The Danes in general are some of the nicest people you could ever wish to meet. My hosts, knowing I am a Muslim, have shown the utmost hospitality as has every Dane I have encountered today.

    d) Having lived all my life in this country and contributed a huge amount to it by integrating fully, living within the law, paying huge taxes every month and never getting a penny from the state, I do feel a bit under siege at the moment!

    e) I'm proud of my country but hate the present government. As do a a lot of non-Muslims!

    f) I honestly don't know what the solution to the current problem is. I've almost started to feel embarrassed and guilty just for having my faith - a faith that is torn, stretched and warped by too many people.

    g) I am genuinely saddened by some of the comments on here. However, I understand the reasoning behind the comments. It would be easy to say to people, "Don't tar all Muslims with the same brush" but that is becoming harder to say... Believe it or not there are still loads of Muslims that care about other people, that work hard and make a positive difference to the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPutty
    There are a billion and a half muslims, most of whom are very much more dedicated to their religion than your average christian. A lot of these live in areas of the world that are already hotspots for violence and where life is more ephemeral. Lebanon where the riots you mention are is hardly a stable country that has suddenly become unstable due to a few offended muslims.
    15k out of 1.5 billion *is* a minority. One school girl *is* a minority but they are held up as representatives of all 1.5 billion which is sad.

    Note I dont agree with the girl or the protestors or rioters but am amazed at peoples inability to discern that people who share common beliefs or culture are not one single entity.
    Nail on the head there!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    And as for ridiculing the Prophet, well, that's the way fo the world now. The Christian faith has had Jesus and God made the butt of jokes for YEARS, in fact just about any religion I can think of has been made the subject of some joke or other, yet you don't see their followers running off to set fire to flags and torch an embassy or two.
    One other minor point - there have been anti-semitic cartoons and articles published in newspapers in Israel (for obvious reasons). There has been no comparable action by the Jewish community over such things.

    Unfortunately I believe this is a problem that is inevitable with a mix of cultures. By that I do not mean to say that I think Britain should not be multi-cultural, I simply believe the way in which the now diverse cultures of Britain co-exist should be readdressed. I am one who finds it totally acceptable for members of other cultures to co-exist with the more traditionalist Briton, however when one does not attempt to integrate oneself, then I have difficulty in accepting them.

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    Almost in control. autopilot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rave
    As for the muslims carrying placards like "burn in hell infidels" in central London- I have a simple solution for them all. If you don't like free speech, piss off to Iran or Saudi Arabia.
    While i personally don't think those newspapers should have printed the cartoons, i completely agree with that statement.

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