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About LinkBacksthats itOriginally Posted by Mike Fishcake
thats it
He's keeps banging on about being a 40 odd year old father of 2.4 children and family being the most important thing. So, if I chose to live my life without any family, am I to suffer for it?
Whilst I understand the drive to uphold family values 100%, the most important thing is for each citizen to live a free and fair life, something I'll take a LOT of convincing that the conservatives believe in.
Shame on you! Saying that I once voted for the Monster Raving Loony Party as the bloke had me in stitches when I saw him campaigning in Bournemouth!
Could you Imagine it all the Chavs voting on things they know nothing about!!!! It would be worse than it is now!!
I have to admit that Camerons speech was quite nice but didnt set out any concrete polices.
I wonder how may people watched Nick Cleggs speech?
Thing is ..... I'll take a lot of convincing that New Labour do either.
After all, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, has feathers and lives on a pond, it's probably a duck. And on that note, judge Labour on what they've actually done, not what they say they're going to do and certainly not on what they say they've already done. And what they've actually done is preside over screwing the economy into the ground, with Brown as Chief Screwer.
As for Cameron and his lot, I have no idea whether they'll be any good, but on a practical level, it's pretty much them or Labour and, whilst not much of a choice, it's a no-brainer between the two for me.
And as for having no policies, well, it's not quite true,. They've announced a few things. And once of the first things they announced was that they weren't going to be announcing too much, until the time was right.
There is NO point in announcing major policy planks when you are years off of any chance to implement them. You risk the government nicking ones they like, filing off the serial numbers, changing the bodywork a bit, giving them a cosmetic respray and announcing them as their own. Or, of course, you risk shifting the debate (if the government get half a chance) onto Tory policy (which doesn't matter yet as they can't implement it) and away from Government policy (which does matter because they are implementing it).
Also, of course, if you're going to have a policy argument with Government over your policy as an opposition, you don't want to do it a couple of years before an election, because if you announce policy now, and have the debate, come the election when you announce it again, the Government will simply turn round and say but that policy is two years old .... .don't you have any new policies?
And also, circumstances have a habit of overtaking policies. It's quite conceivable to announce a policy that makes sense this week, and then have something (like a credit crisis, bank failures and a US $700 billion rescue package announced) that totally invalidate the publicity you might have got, and quite possibly leave you with a policy that made sense last week but doesn't now that circumstances have changed.
So what do the Tories gain from announcing too much in the way of policies at this point? Not much. About the only advantage of announcing them is that is undermines a major Labour gripe about lack of policy. Well putting up with that, I'm afraid, is the price to pay for the strategic decision to hold off on policy announcements. And, a strategic decision is exactly what it is.
So, I said they won't announce much until the time is right, and that begs the question of when that will be. Well, a few months, maybe a year before an election. You can't announce a whole policy platform all in one go if you expect most people to get the message. Most people won't read manifestos, for a start. They'll rely mainly on the papers and evening news. So you want to be able to announce something, and get the maximum publicity from it by milking it and the debate about it for a couple of weeks at least, before you announce something else ..... and repeat.
But doing that, and making the maximum impact on public perceptions, takes months. So, you need to announce policies far enough in advance to milk the benefit, without doing it so far in advance as to lose the benefit by the time the election rolls round. And as only Brown knows exactly when that will be (though the latest date for it is set in legislation), Brown can change the agenda at will. And that, of course, is a major advantage to the incumbents. If Cameron assumes the election is going to be April 2010 and sets August 2009 to start the roll-out, Brown can mess him up by calling an election for September 2009, giving insufficient time to maximise a policy schedule roll-out.
All this, of course, is what scared the knickers clean off Cameron and his cohorts when Brown appeared to be preparing for the Election-That-Never-Was. That caught the Tories totally wrong-footed, and their "bring-it-on" bravado was both a masterful bluff and about the only thing they could say. And Brown bottled it. Ironic, seeing as he had a honeymoon period, a gold-plated reason (taking over from Blair) for going to the country, and a poll lead that now must look like halcyon days to him.
So moaning at the Tories for having no policy is a price they'll have to, and quite willingly do, pay for the strategic decision, but it's really a non-complaint, because it misses (or deliberately ignores) the fundamental political decision that it actually is, rather than actually being true). But then, since when had something not being true bothered recent Labour Prime Ministers? In Blair's case, you only have to look at what the intelligence community told him about Iraqi WMD and how he presented what they'd said to us, and for Brown, you need look no further than his fatuous decision to abolish the 10p tax rate, his ludicrous denials over the effect it would have, and then how he tried to spin his "correction" of that cockup. I don't think I've EVER seen such a ham-fisted balls-up of a major Government decision as Brown's handling of that. I know Brown is supposed to have a great clunking fist, but I didn't realize he liked belting himself on the nose with it!
For me, Cameron et. al. certainly haven't won my hear or mind. I'm yet to be convinced that they're much more than public schoolboy yuppie marketing managers, that talk a good game but don't actually know which way is up. But Labour have certainly lost both my heart and mind, through rank incompetence and the hubris of pretending that everything's gone according to plan.
I don't know that I particularly want Cameron running the country, but I do know I don't want Brown etc running it ...... and as for the notion of Milliband running it ...... shudder!
Cameron, in my opinion, has the less than singular appeal of appearing to be the best option from a very poor set of alternatives.
The problem the Conservatives have is the fact that any smidgen of a good idea is going to be snaffled up by those in government. In the current climate no-one really gives a monkeys what the Conservatives would propose with regard to the financial situation simply because they are not in power and can do "Sweet Felicity Arkwright" about the current situation (although it's looking like central governments have similar lack of powers - tries not to invoke a smilie of any flavour) and so any sound-bites will be platitudes espousing good government. What people think of that will be forgotten when Brown is forced to call an election.
What they have to do is to build sound policy and continue to show how the past decade plus has been squandered by the Labour administration and why we (us tax payers) are paying for it.
"Reality is what it is, not what you want it to be." Frank Zappa. ----------- "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." Huang Po.----------- "A drowsy line of wasted time bathes my open mind", - Ride.
Skii (02-10-2008)
Very interesting post Saracen. I have a few thingss though:
YOu have used the same equation to support the Tories though. You cant support the Tories over their achievements as they have done anything or even proposed to do anything.And on that note, judge Labour on what they've actually done, not what they say they're going to do and certainly not on what they say they've already done.
Or do they have anything credible at all?So, I said they won't announce much until the time is right, and that begs the question of when that will be.
Devil and the Deep Blue Sea.I don't know that I particularly want Cameron running the country, but I do know I don't want Brown etc running it ...... and as for the notion of Milliband running it ...... shudder!
Although i think Brown is a very poor leader, i do get the feeling that Cameron is nothing more than a showman with no substance. Unfortunately, 'talking the talk' and not having to 'walk the walk' is often a way to get on in politics.
I actually genuinely believe, that when push comes to shove, and Labour grow a pair and oust Brown, that Labour will still win the next election.
I don't really buy the idea that you shouldn't announce policies for fear the govt will nick them - if you care about the country and what's best for it then you put out the best ideas you can and be pleased that they are put into action.
I know I'd look more kindly on a Tory party that came up to an election having already demonstrated great policies that were so good the existing govt had to put them in place, than one saying 'we've got great ideas but we'll hold onto them until you elect us'. Like in most creative jobs, it's not the actual ideas that are important, it's demonstrating that you can keep coming up with them in the first place.
Change is what a lot of people want at the moment, for a lot of people serious hard financial times are hitting and things only look to be getting worse, so its a word people want to hear.
Still as with anything is he only saying what people want to hear just till/if he gets elected?
Oh hell yeah. It's the singletons like us with no kids in this country keeping it going with our ever increasing tax bills to fund the boom of pregnant teenagers and whatnot.
My tax bill has gone up and up and up all the time and what do I get for it? I see less police officers on the beat, more CCTV style cameras being placed as an alternative to the police and tin-pot hairbrained schemes galore coming into fruition such as fineing people for leaving their wheely bins out a bit too long ( I got a warning yesterday over this! Tuesday is our 'bin' day and because it was not brought in before 6pm, I had a warning letter about possible court action etc)
I want a government who has the balls to stop all this politically correctness madness. I want a government who will say NO MORE to the masses of single pregnant teens. I don't want a government who tries to take from 1 hand to give to the other while trying to please EVERYONE.
Is this too much to ask?
there are only a finite amount of good ideas, and to think that sharing them for the good of the country and therefore risking ever getting into power at all is never gonna happen.
Besides, to make ONE descision work you have to make other changes and the whole must float or sink. So stating them all is irrelevent becase you have to implement other changes to make it all turn.
Nick who?
I'll be voting "anyone but labour" too - along with 99% of the people who bother to turn up for voting.
I won't miss GB - the man's a fool.
Crosshair VIII Hero (WIFI), 3900x, 32GB DDR4, Many SSDs, EVGA FTW3 3090, Ethoo 719
Not a chance!!! I'm fed up with Labour and I don't care who is running that party, nothing will change that view. And i'm not the only one with that view!
People go on about how Cameron hasn't got this 'walk the walk' rubbish but did Blair have it in 1997??? No! If anything he was fresh faced and in the same position as Cameron.
I am not single. I have a wife and 2 children. Being single is your choice so that isnt the issue. The fact is, i pay towards single people and families the same as you do, and paying the higher bracket of tax, i put ALOT into the system. FAR more than i get out.Oh hell yeah. It's the singletons like us with no kids in this country keeping it going with our ever increasing tax bills to fund the boom of pregnant teenagers and whatnot.
My tax bill has gone up and up and up all the time and what do I get for it? I see less police officers on the beat, more CCTV style cameras being placed as an alternative to the police and tin-pot hairbrained schemes galore coming into fruition such as fineing people for leaving their wheely bins out a bit too long ( I got a warning yesterday over this! Tuesday is our 'bin' day and because it was not brought in before 6pm, I had a warning letter about possible court action etc
I want a government who has the balls to stop all this politically correctness madness. I want a government who will say NO MORE to the masses of single pregnant teens. I don't want a government who tries to take from 1 hand to give to the other while trying to please EVERYONE.
Is this too much to ask?
I realise your argument (i think) is aimed at single parents/pregnant teenagers though.
Also, as far as your dustbins go, and we all have this issue (and other things along that vein), that is down to local government. It doesnt make that much difference if its a Labour/Tory/LibDem local authority. They will still stiff you over on services and charge a fortune in council tax (which incidentally, single people get a 25% reduction for)
whoever you vote for, the economy will be going down and neither party will know what to do
Why do you think I support the Tories? At best, it's more like I despise them a bit less than I despise the others, but they're all politicians and, as a group, I have a low opinion of the lot of them.
Given that they haven't said much substantive, and that they did say they weren't going to say much substantive, we won't know the answer to that until they do start setting out their stall. Until then, who knows?
But bear in mind, Labour now is VERY different from Labour of a few decades ago, and the Tories running the party now aren't the same people that were running it in years past. If Labour can reinvent themselves to win elections, so can the Tories.
Very probably, yes.
Could well be. I'm not sure yet, but I wouldn't dismiss that possibility. I think I said as much in the last post.
I'm not so sure of that. If they had a credible alternative, my reading of it is that they'd already be re-sheathing the bloody knives, and that Brown would already be consigned to the dustbin of political history.
But Labour's problem is neatly summed up with .... If not Brown, then who?
If they come up with a credible answer to that that they think they can sell to the electorate, then Brown had better start keeping walls between his back and his "colleagues" .... or invest in an extra-strength set of political stab-proof body-armour.
Black!! Like the endless blackness of space... which leads to the Chasm of Clams.....
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