Unconditionally Basic Salary for everybody.

[Cov]

It just makes me feel sick when I read how much some people earn without deserving it.

But I tell you what, in our country the discussion is becoming alive now, since a simple lady (Mrs Susanne Wiest) has applied a petition for which has been granted in the federal country she lives in.

Proof: ePetition

She applied for an unconditionally basic salary for every citizen.

What that means is, that EVERY single citizen should get the basic right, by the grounds of basic law, to receive Euro 1.500.- per month. (£1376.- / $2.021.-)
And every child Euro 1.000.- per month (£918.- / $1.348.-)
That's WITHOUT any attachments, strings or commitments.
Meaning, whatever one decides to do, the basic income, will be secure, no matter what.
On the top of that income, everybody would be free to earn additional money.
But the whole point is, the independancy that would give you and everybody around you, it would leave you to decide WHAT you do, and in what timeframe you want to do it.
No pressure, no force, no corruption, no reasons for fear not to be able to survive.

Yes, experts in finance & economics have calculated it through, IT IS ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE TO FINANCE THIS.

When people on the streets are asked about their opinions, they first of all question whether that is eligible for financing at all.
And secondly, they doubt that people can be trusted to still contribute to our society in any form or shape.
The first objection is already proofed wrong.
But the second seems to be grounded on a fundamental mistrust in human beings in general.
What can you see in that justification ? I can see only a tense fear about the unknown.
because that what it is, isn't it ? It's about thinking of a system which we never had before, nowhere in the world.
So, we don't have something to show that this system actually works ... yet.

Just consider the following.
About 45% of the population are in work, the rest are pensioneers, children & teenagers, the unemployed, housewifes / housemen and the handicaped.
From there you can see that the majority already lives from income which they don't "earn" in the traditional way.

The beenefits, a gouvernment pours out every single year onto the population, makes already approx 70 % of that support what a "unconditionally basic salary" already would cost anyway.
But think of the advantages for one minute, and you will realize maybe what potential there is !

Here only a few which come to my mind:

1. Crime will decrease because far less people would commit crime out of devastation.

2. The amount of security we have to take care of in order to protect ourselves / posessions is crazy in my eyes. That would decrease as well.

3. Prostitution is a very big issue all over the world. That would decrease significant.

4. At this moment of time, a huge number of people are working voluntary in our society.
I know of many in my circle of friends who can't follow all the things they want to do because of a lack of free time.

5. The massive decrease of administration, because all other benefits would be abolished.
That alone and the simplifying of complicated tax law would be a change most welcome and overdue too.

6. Think about the level of aggressions between people who're pushed to the limit.
Those people are the ones who can affect you in a very negative way, if you're not one of them anyway. People are not bad by nature, but they can be pushed / forced to the point where there's just no space for them to distinguish the fire where it burns the most.
We can read about the results of their actions every day in the newspaper.
Reports where people got killed for reasons which are beyond us.
I believe that the independancy this system could give everybody, would cause a significant decrease of violence.

etc etc etc

From there you can see what potential of people's dedications & efforts could be released.

Just imagine what you could do if you would be given the "time" and the "independency" to do your things. And nothing & nobody could put you under pressure.

And now just think for one moment how your life might have looked like, if you had been given the chance from your birth onwards.

What would have changed and how would things have turned out differently for you ?

I have only got into this political hot topic since the collection of signature for the said petition was closed. I was too late. The petition opened end of December 2008 and closed end of February 2009.

Normal petitions get about 1.000 to 2.000 signatures - the most.
This petition has collected 52.973 signatures, and that only online !
If it had been continued until today, it would have grown to over 500.000 signatures in only three months time !

Since then, this idea and all information I was able to gather from the internet about it, does not release me anymore.
From all I know now, it is the overdue next logical revolution we all need in our country, after the fall of the wall in 1989.
I'm convinced that it is the one thing that would kick off changes in the whole of our world, which are purely positive for everyone involved.
That would introduce a change affecting every single one us and everybody around us !

Having followed discussions between pro & contra politicians, I noticed how corrup the leader of our society really are.
I realized that the major objection they have in their job role is to secure their position and not to represent the people of their country.
I realize that we live in a very, very injustice society.
Wealth is not fairly divided.
In fact, the poor work for the rich.
In a society where certain people are given the oportunity to gain so much money by investing, there is no fairness.
Please do not come with "Yes, but all have the same chances.", you know that it's bullsh*t and purely capitalism thinking.
Unemployment can hit everyone of us and there is no reassurance existing, except we take things now in our hands.

Since I got to know about this subject, I just know that this system is the answer to most of our problems and to establish a real sense of justice.
Not that sh*t what we're having now.

[transylvanic]

Seriously, this reads like an email forward of some kind.

For a much more erudite exposition on the production/consumption dichotomy and the economic roles played by people, see:

In Praise of Idleness by Bertrand Russell
http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html

In truth, eliminating inheritance, so that every person must earn their wealth, is an easy enough way to redistribute wealth and alleviate a lot of ills. The tax revenue could then bail out governments from the present ridiculous debt situations.

The reason why these sentiments are not given force, however, even though they benefit the great majority of the population, is that the many are divided and working hard to get a step above their peers instead of trying to recognise their common interest. The rich are educated, have a lot more resources, and inevitably their voice is heard when decisions are being made.

Unless the poor and oppressed majority dares to speak with one voice, it will keep eating its tv dinners, living vicariously through the exploits of people who get paid more per year than average joe can earn in his lifetime, and die silently, to be replaced by already indoctrinated consumer-producers who are forced to consume cheaply made plastic goods in order to motivate them to produce the comforts supporting the rich.

[TooNice]

Yes, experts in finance & economics have calculated it through, IT IS ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE TO FINANCE THIS.

Sources please. How can you state in bold that 'IT IS ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE TO FINANCE THIS.' (according to 'experts'), when as you have stated (correctly or otherwise), that the system has not been used elsewhere?

Who is going to finance for this? I am guessing the government given that you are saying that even a child (who I assume is too young to work), would be receiving such salary. I don't see how this could work, at least without moving towards communism. Essentially, you'll have to redistribute the wealth for it to work (and assume that the ones who get taxed don't get so sick of it that they will take their wealth elsewhere). Or the government could print more money, but that would just lead to inflation and render those £1376/£918 useless. In fact, what are you going to do if some family suddenly decides to spawn more kids from benefit from those added income? There are so many factors that can go wrong but overlooked.

There is already a minimum wage in the UK to protect people who are working to some extent and I think that is as far as such an ideas should go.

[Cov]

@ transylvanic ... It was very interesting to read Bertrand Russell's "In Praise of Idleness". Thank you.

@ TooNice ... All the information to your questions are already answered in articles, easily to find via google.
You need to open your eyes, but of course, only if you want to.

And your example to the minimum wage is as ridiculous as you can possibly get.
If you think that's a fair system, then you're only one of the pathetic supporters of injustice for your own benefit.


Überlegungen zur Finanzierung eines bedingungslosen Grundeinkommens

Bedingungsloses Grundeinkommen

Finanzierung und Wirkung
eines bedingungslosen Grundeinkommens

Ein bedingungsloses Grundeinkommen für alle

Bedingungsloses Grundeinkommen (BGE)

FAQ Bedingungsloses Grundeinkommen

Ein bedingungsloses Grundeinkommen ist bezahlbar.

[Barakka]

What that means is, that EVERY single citizen should get the basic right, by the grounds of basic law, to receive Euro 1.500.- per month. (£1376.- / $2.021.-)
And every child Euro 1.000.- per month (£918.- / $1.348.-)
That's WITHOUT any attachments, strings or commitments.
Meaning, whatever one decides to do, the basic income, will be secure, no matter what.
On the top of that income, everybody would be free to earn additional money.
But the whole point is, the independancy that would give you and everybody around you, it would leave you to decide WHAT you do, and in what timeframe you want to do it.
No pressure, no force, no corruption, no reasons for fear not to be able to survive.

Really ? no, but really ?

The scale goes from low....
No pressure, no force, no corruption, no reasons to ever take a job sweeping streets or cleaning public toilets.
... to high ...
No pressure, no force, no corruption, no reasons to ever take a job with massive responbilities and/or high levels of stress.

Then pay people (by current standards) Very high amounts of money to procreate and do very little.

So professional couple (doctors say) with a child - joint income £3670
Unskilled school leaving couple with 3 kids - joint income £5506
Unskilled couple that can't make up their mind what they want to do yet with 5 kids £7342

Cue mass emmigration to any country NOT doing this... as this becomes a country full of people not sure what they want to do having children until they decide, no-one in charge to make a decision on how to deal with it, and really dirty toilets.

[noTHINGface]

... And i'd be one of those leaving. Socialism/communism never worked that well. I have a high stress job, with responsibility for others and budgets etc. I sure as hell wouldn't do it for a couple of grand per annum. I'd be off... This is a nice idea, a grand new world order, but is not realistic, sensible or achievable.

[directhex]

COMMUNISM!

[tiggerai]

^ that's exactly what I thought when I read it!

[mikerr]

Arbeit Macht Frei ...

[sleepyhead]

Money = Debt

Apparently.

Zeitgeist Addendum

[neonplanet40]

And how wouldyou convince people to go to 8 years of medical school, fund it and then only look forward to a basic wage? It wouldnt work.

COMMUNISM!!!!

Surely not allowed on here

[staffsMike]

I thought the same thing.

Why bother doing a job like teaching for example which is pretty low paid job unless you take on further responsiblities, when you can work in a shop with no responsibility and earn essentially the same.

Unless of course you remove the choice element of work and simply make someone who could teach.. teach and someone who could be a doctor be a doctor. What a lovely facist regime it would be.

It's a lovely idea on paper of course, everyone gets a least a decent salary, but it always fails when you add in the fact that we aren't robots.

[Salazaar]

Where do the taxes come from to pay for this basic salary? You can't tax the salary to pay for the salary so you'd have to levy huge taxes on purchases and on extra income. So no one would go out and get work because although they were paid for it they wouldn't see anything after tax and no one would buy anything because they're all on a very small income, tax on goods is huge and let's face it, since no one is working no one would be producing anything anyway.

Yay communism

[TheAnimus]

Okay, lets look at this example shall we?

My parents used to run a day nursery, in the Creche a baby by law, had to have 1 to 3 supervision, that is one member of staff for every 3 children.

Now back then minimum wage was iirc £3.80 per hour, on average the insurance costs, commercal rates + rent costs where roughly £2 per hour per child.

This means that every child costs at least £3.27 per hour to care for, i remeber the figure been closer to £4, but can't remeber the exact reasons for the cost.

So now your child care for your 6 month old baby is costing you £3.50 per hour. How much do you have to be earning for it to be worthwhile cost?

Bare in mind this was in Cornwall, where plenty of people still think the sun revolves around the earth, as such they don't earn much money themselves at all. So if we assume that people aren't going to work for less than £2 per hour after tax and costs, that means they have to earn somewhere around £8 per hour to be able to have their baby looked after.

£8 per hour in cornwall, circa 2000 was a very hard job to find indeed. So even thou my parents ran the Creche area at cost, few people could afford it.

As such fewer people where able to go to work and earn more money.

A minimum wage prevents exploitation to a degree, the real way to prevent it, is to simply have enough jobs in the area that create demand. Regretably minimum wages often stifle that happening (there are plenty of examples of this like my parents one).

[transylvanic]

COMMUNISM!

It saddens me that people say the word like it's a self-explanatory bad thing. An ender, rather than a starter, to discussions. Look guys, I'm not here to defend the initial proposal, that's for the original poster to do.

But you must agree that there probably ought to be a ceiling on "earnings". I put it in quotation marks because no footballer ever earnt £6 million per year. Ditto actors, basketball players, CEOs, and most importantly corporations.

Simply put, you can operate a successful free market economy while still having salary caps and profit caps, beyond which the government can collect excess profits and use them for public purposes (the fact that governments at present do a pathetic job with their budgets is a separate issue). This need not necessarily flow over into full-blown communism, which I am actually a proponent of, but recognise the general impossibility of it due to the deficit of intelligent and compassionate people.

There are people in this world with money they don't know what to do with. Taking away the excess (talking about money you still have after buying that home in Chelsea and the Aston Martin) reinserts capital into the markets and actually stimulates more economic activity. Just a thought

[TheAnimus]

But you must agree that there probably ought to be a ceiling on "earnings". I put it in quotation marks because no footballer ever earnt £6 million per year. Ditto actors, basketball players, CEOs, and most importantly corporations.

No. These people are paid that, because they can generate that revenue, or people think they can rather.

Paying someone money to be the face of your product can increase the sales of it. Pepsi in the UK are on the defensive, they are loosing ground to coke, because the "young people" are influenced by a picture of David Beckham drinking it, he is simply worth money. If it means they sell an extra 100 million cans, paying 1p per can to him is worth it? He is therefore worth paying £1M too.

If they paid him £1M and sales didn't pick up, Buyer Beware, they miss judged his worth. He isn't worth the money but they are still obliged to pay it to him.

Why is some muppet kicking a ball worth money in the first place? Because the north of england need something to do when not playing dominos whilst drinking Ale, so they buy products of their club, buy incredibly expensive tickets, watch it on TV etc. If people weren't willing too (ie Stopped) paying so much into the system, then these people would be paid less, but if that happened, their would be fewer jobs for people in Pakistan making this years official kit. Think about it!

Simply put, you can operate a successful free market economy while still having salary caps and profit caps, beyond which the government can collect excess profits and use them for public purposes (the fact that governments at present do a pathetic job with their budgets is a separate issue). This need not necessarily flow over into full-blown communism, which I am actually a proponent of, but recognise the general impossibility of it due to the deficit of intelligent and compassionate people.

There are people in this world with money they don't know what to do with. Taking away the excess (talking about money you still have after buying that home in Chelsea and the Aston Martin) reinserts capital into the markets and actually stimulates more economic activity. Just a thought

Really, can you give an example of these sucessful places?

Now people with money they don't know what to do with, what do you think they do with it? Invest it? Helping people start other business that can make our lifes that little bit easier or more fun, in return for more money for the risk they took on. Damn those people helping others in exchange for a return, how incredibly selfish to help someone.

Now, why would i work harder, if i didn't see any more money? Isn't it bad enough that its currently 10:20am, its not until i get to well into this afternoon that i'm earning money for me, right now its all for the government! My greed is paying for the goverment to buy more incubators for the little premature babies? (and obviously garden furniture for Jackie Smith, can't have our home secretries garden not well furnished at my expense now can we!).