Stop Islamification of Europe - Should they be allowed to exist?

[Saracen]

Do you think Churches are tolerated in a lot of Islamic countries? I think not, so why should they have the same freedom in Europe and then complain they hate the west when they live in the same society they hate.

Because we hold freedom of expression, freedom of religious belief (or lack of), and (within limits) freedom of speech as important freedoms. So we should apply then to others because we believe it's right and not conditional on whether they apply then to us.

Do to others as you would like to done to yourself, as a lack of religious tolerance because (and if) someone doesn't tolerate our religion hardly speaks well for how we practice what we say we believe in, does it?

[007]

Because we hold freedom of expression, freedom of religious belief (or lack of), and (within limits) freedom of speech as important freedoms. So we should apply then to others because we believe it's right and not conditional on whether they apply then to us.

Do to others as you would like to done to yourself, as a lack of religious tolerance because (and if) someone doesn't tolerate our religion hardly speaks well for how we practice what we say we believe in, does it?

Saracen, from that perspective you are absolutely right.

Is not that also mean that we could treat Islam in Europe the same way they treat other beliefs in Islamic countries, without Muslims moaning about inequalities ?

[Brucelles]

Do you think Churches are tolerated in a lot of Islamic countries? I think not, so why should they have the same freedom in Europe and then complain they hate the west when they live in the same society they hate.

I guess you missed my post about the catholic church in Abu Dhabi. It's nowhere near the Anglican church, but bigger.

Of course churches are allowed. There are even churches in Saudi, and they are as big a bunch of dicks as I have ever come across, in general.

I know that my 15-odd years spent living in the Middle East have given me more knowledge of Islam than you would normally pick up from the telly, but I can't imagine where you got the impression that churches aren't allowed in Muslim countries.

[menthel]

Yes, I do understand the statistical insignificancy of my personal experience. However, it does not change a fact, that for Muslims, the issues are not-negotiable.

Please show me the dozen of mix-marriages where female is a Muslim, the Male is an atheist and the kids have freedom of choice of religion. I have never heard about any

The thing is it stands for other religions too. I know hindus who were not allowed to marry outside of their faith (or caste for that matter) and a catholic who would be disowned by her family if she married outside of that religion. Your own particular fear/hate of islam seems to blinker you to some of the facts.

Edit: Actually, I know of a couple in which the male is muslim, the woman is an athiest and wasn't forced to convert. They have been allowed to let their children grow up and make up their own minds.

[007]

The thing is it stands for other religions too. I know hindus who were not allowed to marry outside of their faith (or caste for that matter) and a catholic who would be disowned by her family if she married outside of that religion. Your own particular fear/hate of islam seems to blinker you to some of the facts.

Yes, but you are talking about specific examples.I would apply it to entire Muslim society.

Do you accuse me of islamophobia just because I am ready to criticise Islam ?

Edit: Actually, I know of a couple in which the male is muslim, the woman is an athiest and wasn't forced to convert. They have been allowed to let their children grow up and make up their own minds.

Yes, I heard about it , but have you met Muslim women marrying non-Muslim ???

[wazi]

The idea to partition Indai wa unsuprisingly the idea of the people that lived there, the British wanted to keep a single state. The decisioon was forced in 1946 to partition after both sides started winding up for an ethnic war, the deicider was a riot in Calcutta where 5000 people died.

As to Israel, that was down to the UN, the British tried to stop the influx of Jews in to Palestine. Unfortunately we obstained rather than voted against the resolution to partition palestine, I beleive the USA was in favour, not suprisingly

m8ty maybee you want to check your history before you go further !!!!

india was divided because the hindus were treating the muslims worse that the un-touchables ( the hindus have a caste system in which you are born and can not change ever you are born into wotever )
the muslims wanted there own homeland

the british divided KASHMIR but tno proplerly as 99% people who live there are muslim and they dont want indian rule , lord mountbatten was the person involved ( who was l8tr blown up by the I.R.A )

and as for palestine

The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (dated 2 November 1917) was a formal statement of policy by the British government stating that

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."[1]

The declaration was made in a letter from Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Baron Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland, a Zionist organization. The letter reflected the position of the British Cabinet, as agreed upon in a meeting on 31 October 1917. It further stated that the declaration is a sign of "sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations."

[menthel]

No, I think you have a specific problem with Islam as you use examples of it's faults that are also seen in other religions!

And actually, I do have an example of a Muslim women marrying outside of her religion. One of my wife's schoolfriends (who had a traditional arranged marriage) has a sister who married a white guy who did not have to convert. I can't help on the kids as they don't have any yet!

[shadowmaster]

Do you think Churches are tolerated in a lot of Islamic countries?

I can think of quite a few, however if there are some Muslim countries that do not allow it then they are going against their very own teachings. Teachings that explicitly mention that places of worship of non muslims are not be harmed and if in danger are to be protected. If you read up Islamic history, in particular under the rule of Umar bin al Khattab (2nd Caliphate) you will find this was the case.

Yes, I heard about it , but have you met Muslim women marrying non-Muslim ???

Yes, I have.

Once again you seem have the inability to comprehend that you cant generalise all Muslims on a couple of specific examples you have seen.

[007]

Yes, I have.

Once again you seem have the inability to comprehend that you cant generalise all Muslims on a couple of specific examples you have seen.

I would say, you are rather the one who is talking about few specific examples .Please, do not even try to convince me that mixed - marriages with Muslim women are something more common than 45 degrees heat (I ma the Celsius ) in Scottish Hebrides.Come on, be honest, at least toward yourself.

[AD-15]

Why, for god sake, I would have to go to jail up to 7 years for bigamy, while you, Muslims are allowed to have another few wives and even claim benefits for them?

Errrr... Because you're not a muslim and don't believe in polygamy?

I'm not allowed to eat pork, or drink alcohol, but I don't whine like a baby or claim I'm being discriminated against when I see people scoff down pork meat at a BBQ in some beer garden.

No one's forcing you to be a Muslim, so stop freakin' complaining!!!

I would feel offended by not being allowed to marry a girl just because she is a Muslim and I am not. It seems, it does not matter if I am nice, English, Scottish, labour, conservative, white or blue collar, rich, poor,ugly, beautiful,tall or short – I just cannot, because I am 'an infidel'.

Ah, you just get worse and worse don't you?

You are acting like a big baby, you know that? So what if a woman doesn't want to marry you because you're not a Muslim? It's her belief. If you were a billionaire, and there is a woman who would hate to live the rich, affluent lifestyle you'd live, would you take offense if she wouldn't want to marry someone like you?

Last time I checked, people could marry who they think is suitable.

A woman is a muslim because she chooses to be muslim. This is fact. No matter what a tiny retarded minority might do to women, no matter what you might see in the next copy of The Sun, there is no compulsion in Islam.

Are we equal or not? Is there any chance I could convince the parents to my values ? Noooo ! Because you do not listen but loudly demand to be listened.Why do you expect flexibility from modern, western society while you are giving NONE ? That's not fair.

You just don't get it do you?

It's up to them what they want to believe in. They judge Islam is best, so they decide to be Muslims. If nobody wants to marry you because they don't agree with their lifestyle, who cares? They're not forcing you to be like them whatsoever. You don't want to be a Muslim, don't be. Your choice and your choice alone.

As for expecting flexibility, so what? It's better to accommodate a culture than to exclude it. They're not asking you to change your ways whatsoever, just to respect theirs. They respect you, why not respect them?

I feel, that you can be a good friend of Muslims as long as you agree with everything they say , because there are no compromises, no negotiations and no changed opinion . Either, you accept what Muslims say or you are the racist and islamophobe. That's that simple.

You're just making yourself look really silly now dude. A lot of my friends don't agree with the Islamic way of life, so they are not Muslims. I don't have a problem with it, they are still my friends. If one day they decide to become Muslims, then great! If not, then who cares?

Understand and accept that people have different opinions, priorities, point of views and do not have to do everything with high regard to rules of Islam, because you do not care about right of 'infidels' at all.

Absolute bull.

Islam wouldn't have fared too well if Muslims followed the state of mind you claim they do, would it?

and explain that when it tells explicitly says that you must kill a whole bunch of people on account of their religious beliefs (or lack thereof) it actually means something profoundly peaceful and loving.

Playing around with stereotypes now are we? Tell me, where exactly does it say this in the Quran? No doubt, you won't be able to say a thing, in which case you are lower than low.

These qualities make the manual for your car loads better than any supposedly holy book.

No it doesn't. :S

Because it's easier to read, it makes it better?

The Quran provides what I judge to be a perfect way of life. A manual for a car explains something completely different to me. Why are you comparing the two? Shows how baseless what you are arguing is.

For example, did god literally turn the jews into "apes, despised and loathed" (S7.166), "apes despised and hated" (S2.65) or "apes and swine" (S5.60) or just metaphorically? And if they (and all their descendents - S2.66) are apes, why do they still "look like donkeys" and are "ugly" (S62.5)? What 'context' am I missing?

Again, I can't make out what the hell you are saying. If you are trying to quote tiny bits and pieces from some hate site, then, firstly, it's pathetic, and secondly, it makes no sense. Why don't you try quoting the whole thing?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In my view, if one need to devote their entire life (re-re-re-)reading a book to interpret the content properly, then we have a problem. That implies that the book is too complex and unfit for the purpose of teaching morale values for followers who have other obligations than to re-read the book.

No we don't have a problem. Because people can do it just fine. Some idiots just choose not to listen to them.

Do you think Churches are tolerated in a lot of Islamic countries? I think not, so why should they have the same freedom in Europe and then complain they hate the west when they live in the same society they hate.

Shows how vastly little you know.

Despite there being a tiny minority of Christians in Saudi Arabia, there are still churches. There way of life is tolerated. After all, this is the Islamic way.

Oh, how about the countless Churches in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan, Iraq, the Gulf...? There are Christians (and Jews) everywhere in Islamic countries. And yes, they are tolerated. And yes, they are free to worship in their own way and in their own temple aswell.

But maybe I was just seeing things when I saw these countless Churches wherever I go. And yes, those holiday photos I took of some very beautiful churches must have been photoshopped.

I'm going to say now, I will not bother to reply to any idiot on here who criticises Islam without even knowing a single thing about it (nothing true at least). You do your proper research, you find out what Islam is about. When you have constructive criticism to make, no problem. But when all that comes out your mouth is rubbish, don't expect anything from me please.

Before you criticise something, you find out what it's about for god's sake!!!!!!!!!!

[TooNice]

No we don't have a problem. Because people can do it just fine. Some idiots just choose not to listen to them.

So now it's just 'people' and not just the 'highly intelligent philosophers' who have devoted their entire lives reading the Quran? Or is it a case that you see yourself as one of those 'highly intelligent' philosophers who 'gets it' and everyone interpret the same way as you do are right (and equally intelligent), and everyone else are 'idiots'. Just to remind you what you said earlier:

By interpret, I mean the scholars will have devoted their entire lives in reading the Quran, and will have an incomparable knowledge of what is in it. These people are incredibly intelligent philosophers.

And frankly speaking, I do not doubt for a second that there -are- scholars who have studied the Quran and -are- critical about it (just as you would for any religions, and non-religious beliefs for that matter). But going by the way you have been posting, they are just idiots who do not understand the perfection of the book aren't they?

I'm not allowed to eat pork, or drink alcohol, but I don't whine like a baby or claim I'm being discriminated against when I see people scoff down pork meat at a BBQ in some beer garden.

That's great! However..

The first is the prophet Muhammad cartoons in the Danish press. Whilst the intention behind these may not have been menacing, the impact is one that should always be avoided. These kinds of jokes are 100% forbidden in Islam, and I can understand the huge amount of offense taken by Muslims. They shouldn't have been released.

A little inconsistent there. Eating pork or drinking alcohol is 100% forbidden in Islam too, so what makes one acceptable and the other unacceptable? It's irrational. I am reasonably fine to go with the 'you follow your faith' and 'I'll do what I want'. I may not always agree with your faith, and you may not always agree with how I choose to live my life. But we'll just choose to ignore those differences, from my point of view, because life is too short to do otherwise. But the second you try to influence how I live my life, I'll be offended. To say that those should not have been released is akin of saying that food should not be served during the fasting hours of a Ramadan.

[Marcos]

Theres nothing racist about disliking a specific religion

its not great to dislike a whole religion, but its not racist either

[Saracen]

Saracen, from that perspective you are absolutely right.

Is not that also mean that we could treat Islam in Europe the same way they treat other beliefs in Islamic countries, without Muslims moaning about inequalities ?

I don't see it that way, no.

Firstly, I take AD-15's point about churches in Islamic countries. I neither agree nor disagree because I don't know enough about Islamic countries to do so. Certainly, there have been news reports of Christian churches being attacked, but then there's bomb plots against synagogues, Hindu temples and,yes, Mosques too. Just because some people chose to attack a Church in an Islamic country doesn't necessarily mean churches aren't tolerated ... it just means some people attacked it, and it may be no more than a handful. There may be some more extreme Muslim countries, or perhaps I should say nominally Muslim countries run by hard line states where churches aren't welcome .... I'd have to wonder about, for instance, Iran and Yemen. But I wonder because I don't know enough about them to know. In other words, I draw a distinction between Islam, and the actions of hardline governments that say they're Islamic.

Personally, I'd have thought those places least tolerant of Churches were probably hard line communist states, like the old Soviet Union.

But either way, no. I don't think we ought to treat Mosques adversely, even if it were to be the case that Churches are treated harshly in Muslim countries. We ought to be true to what we maintain are our standards, even if they aren't applied to us elsewhere.

However .... there's a line. This is a nominally Christian country and one where we hold the right to religious belief (or lack thereof) as important, but it IS a Christian country, nominally at least. So while, personally, I would support to right of Muslims, or anyone else, to belief in what they believe in and to worship as they feel they need to, that extends up to and only up to where the laws of this country say it stops.

And if, for example, a religion were to say bigamy is okay, and the laws of this country say it's illegal, then the laws of this country win. I regard the laws of this country as supreme while in this country, and any immigrant coming here, of whatever religion, needs to accept that. If there's a clash between laws and religion, either you accept the laws win, or don't come here. If you put the religious belief as more important, that's your right .... in a country where law says it is.

This is part of what I was trying to say earlier. In my opinion, (legal) immigrants are welcome here, and free to practice any religion they wish, within the law .... but part of coming here implies accepting our laws, and not expecting us to change to suit the immigrant's beliefs or culture. If there's a compromise to be made, any immigrant (including Brit's going abroad) ought to be the one's making it, not expecting the host nation to change to suit them. If people don't like, and accept, the laws of a host nation, simply don't go there (or here). It's hardly rocket science.

Oh, and just for clarity, Christian beliefs are subservient to the laws of the country, too. It's not an anti-Islamic point. It's a statement that the basis of the country is that secular law trumps religion. Anyone of any faith needs to accept that if coming here.

[shadowmaster]

I would say, you are rather the one who is talking about few specific examples .Please, do not even try to convince me that mixed - marriages with Muslim women are something more common than 45 degrees heat (I ma the Celsius ) in Scottish Hebrides.Come on, be honest, at least toward yourself.

Its well known, that people tend to marry within their culture, religion, ethnicity, etc. Not necessarily because they cant marry outside, its its easier to adjust with someone who is of the same background.

How many Hindu women have you seen marry a white Caucasian man, or how many orthodox Jewish women have you seen with a man thats not of their religion? Its quite clear that you seem to have specific problem with Islam.

[007]

Its well known, that people tend to marry within their culture, religion, ethnicity, etc. Not necessarily because they cant marry outside, its its easier to adjust with someone who is of the same background.

How many Hindu women have you seen marry a white Caucasian man, or how many orthodox Jewish women have you seen with a man thats not of their religion? Its quite clear that you seem to have specific problem with Islam.

Unfortunately,some just can't.

from :
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...EAskTheScholar

''...
First of all, it is to be stressed that Islam does not encourage the interfaith marriages. The general rule of Islam is that Muslims should marry Muslims. A Muslim male or female should not marry a non-Muslim male or female. The only exception is given to Muslim men who are allowed to marry the chaste girls from among the People of the Book.

However, a Muslim woman is better suited to a Muslim man than a woman of Christian or Jewish faith, regardless of her merits. This is because marriage is not based on fulfilling one’s sexual desires; rather, it is an institution. It aims to establish a home on the bases of tranquility, faith and Islamic morals. To fulfil this task, the whole family must apply Allah’s course and try to convey His message.

It is obvious that Islam made it impermissible for a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim with aim of keeping her away from things that may jeopardize her faith. In fact, Islam aims at protecting religion. To achieve this goal, it prohibits a Muslim from being involved in something that represents a threat to his religion. A Muslim woman will not feel that her religion is secure while being with a Jewish or a Christian husband especially as the majority of the People of the Book do not show due respect to our Prophet, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). ..''

[007]

Errrr... Because you're not a muslim and don't believe in polygamy?

I'm not allowed to eat pork, or drink alcohol, but I don't whine like a baby or claim I'm being discriminated against when I see people scoff down pork meat at a BBQ in some beer garden.

No one's forcing you to be a Muslim, so stop freakin' complaining!!!

Can you hear yourself?

Talking about polygamy we no longer mean religious customs but COMMON LAW.

##Sorry for double post