Stop Islamification of Europe - Should they be allowed to exist?

[JPreston]

Yes - let's take a stand to prevent our language being destroyed!!

By the way, it's:

1. borders
2. languages
3. cultures
4. Muslims
5. America's
6. lose
7. its
8. thinks

Ah ha ha haaaa, very good

[thestjohn]

Do I think they should be allowed to exist?
Yes, if only because I might feel as strongly about something someday and wish to have the right to protest. Do I agree with their message? No, nor do I have any fear of Islamification; it's just not going to happen here.

[TooNice]

Here's a question for you, do any of you socialise outside of your own ethnic group? I don't mean just being friendly with the people you work with, but genuinely take part in other cultures?

I've always wondered whether someone can be genuinely multi-culturalist, or whether the best we can hope for is not to hate each others differences too much.

What does it really mean to take part in other cultures? I grew up and lived in several countries across three continents and adapted accordingly each time. As a kid, I can genuinely say that ethnicity made no difference whatsoever for me. And maybe I was just too dumb to notice it, but I didn't feel 'excluded' at any point in playgrounds for being different. But I'd like to think that people just don't pay much attention when they are young.

The thing is, I won't go out of my way to take part in activities I have no personal interest in. Ethnicity has little to do with it. It may well be that the activities I enjoy may lead me towards certain group who are more inclined to appreciate such things. But it is equally true that not everyone think that way (as least when they grow up). I think you can kind of tell when certain group keeps you as an 'outsider' while others more readily to accept you just by your ethnicity. It's not rational in my view, yet does it make sense to reject a group who are welcoming or try to be accepted in one who isn't so welcoming? It's not enough just for one party to be 'multi-culturalist'. The individual needs to have an interest in said culture, and the group needs to be ready to accept said individual.

I can definitely say that a general statement like 'the best we can hope for is not to hate each others differences too much' does not ring true though. If you think about it, in probably every culture, you will have at least some people who have a genuine interest to a foreign culture. The reason may well as irrational as some of the people who hate dislike people different from themselves, but I reckon that you can go both ways, and possibly be even neutral when it comes to people with different ethnicity.

[Lucio]

I can definitely say that a general statement like 'the best we can hope for is not to hate each others differences too much' does not ring true though. If you think about it, in probably every culture, you will have at least some people who have a genuine interest to a foreign culture. The reason may well as irrational as some of the people who hate dislike people different from themselves, but I reckon that you can go both ways, and possibly be even neutral when it comes to people with different ethnicity.

So what I think you're saying is that basically it's up to other people not to reject us, so we won't reject them? It does seem so passive though, that to fit in you basically can't hold to any viewpoint that means someone else is wrong in what they think or do.

[Stanman]

There IS a difference - Radical Catholics, Protestants, Jewish do not place bombs in public communication or hijack planes full of people and crash them in the name of God etc. There is no excuse for acting like that, no matter Palestina or any other place

I do agree with you, involvement of the West in Iraq was not required but I have nothing to do with foreign policy of the UK (as most people living in this country) and I do not want to be affected by somebody who thinks it is totally wrong.

Does Baruch Goldstein ring any bells or Jim Jones?
or for that matter Sabre and Shatilla?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
Now you see were people get radicalised - no anniversarys or justice for these victims.

[Saracen]

Here's a question for you, do any of you socialise outside of your own ethnic group? I don't mean just being friendly with the people you work with, but genuinely take part in other cultures?

I've always wondered whether someone can be genuinely multi-culturalist, or whether the best we can hope for is not to hate each others differences too much.

Even if some cultures keep largely to themselves (and IMHO, some do) we have to ask ourselves why? And I suspect it'll be a mix of reasons.

There are, for instance, some significant parts of Luton where, as a white bloke, I've never felt especially welcome. There's a couple of shops where, initially at least, the reaction from Asian staff was .... distant and cool, if not cold. However, as I'm in there a fair bit, now I'm known and the reaction is friendly. So was the original 'cool' reaction because I wasn't Asian, or just because I was a stranger? Dunno, and frankly, don't care. I now get smiles and a pleasant chat ..... though I don't know if it would last if I tried to date the owner's daughter.

On the other hand, friends of mine are Ugandan Asians, who came here as kids when Amin booted them out of Uganda, in the early '70s. When we wonder why many Asians keep themselves to themselves and don't mix too much, it's hardly surprising to anyone that remembers how they were treated when they first arrived here. The general reaction was along the lines of "bleeping Paki, coming here and taking our jobs". Never mind that most of them came here and succeeded because, as in Uganda, they were enterprising folks that damn well worked their cojones off to succeed, in the face of a welcome often distinctly lacking in friendship or sympathy.

So if that generation of Asian immigrants prefer to mix with their own, perhaps it's because that's what we taught them with our welcome?

Another friend of mine is pushing 60, been here nearly all his life, with kids born here, spent most of his formative years in the British army, including more than one tour in Northern Ireland, at the height of the troubles, getting shot at on a regular basis. Yet a couple of years ago, we were on a job together when a "British" youth (skinhead haircut, mock combat fatigues and army boots) took it upon himself to call my mate a long string of very nasty names, about the mildest of which was "coon", together with the N-word several times. He was also referred to in terms I assume were supposed to indicate a West Indian religious grouping, yet he hails from South America.

The UK might not be anything like as racially aware as it was in those days of the Ugandan exodus, but we still have our share of ignorant louts. Small wonder, if you're subjected to that sort of thing, that communities tend to be insular.

I said I doubted my Asian shopkeeper friend would be thrilled if I was trying to date his daughter, but I equally suspect there'd be a large part of respectable white Britain that wouldn't be thrilled if his son was trying to date their white daughter.

Yes, there are immigrant communities that tend to mix largely with their "own", but perhaps it's because they're more comfortable with people that have a similar background, heritage, culture, language and religion ..... and perhaps it's also at least in part because they haven't exactly been welcomed with smiles and open homes by much of the indigenous white population.

And, for that matter, anyone noticed how Brits living abroad tend to cluster together? How there are thriving British ex-pat communities in, for instance, Spain ... and even in parts of the US? It seems when abroad, we tend to do exactly what we moan about when others do it here.

[blackbirds]

You pick upon one of my biggest peeves there, Saracen - racists and their total failure to identify where someone's from. I'll forgive the guys that shout the word "paki" at my Iraqi friend, since he is at least from the Arabic world. Likewise, the guys that shout it at my Indian friend. I guess it's easy to get confused, although, a small part of me hopes that it's actually a far more learned insult than its shouter lets on, and he means it quite deliberately as an extra level of abuse to wind someone up even further, in much the way that Americans offend the more patriotic of us Scots by mistaking us for being English. But, jesus, how can anyone call my Sudanese friend a paki? Sudanese. They make me want to fetch a gun. Or at the very least, a Lonely Planet world travel guide that I can beat their heads in with before showing them all the picshurs of all the funny coloured people and pointing out how, ooh look, someone from Africa looks TOTALLY ****ING DIFFERENT to someone from a country several thousand miles away, and on a different continent. Christ, at least the guy who shouted it at my Iraqi mate had it within asteroid-prediction range. I really do despair at my countryfolk.

[Knoxville]

If we don't believe in freedom of expression for those we despise, we don't believe in it at all.

The problem of course with freedom of expression is that not enough people think before they speak and even fewer think before they repeat what they've heard....

YES, Hell YES, this and other organizations should be allowed to exist. Not only should they exist but they should be viewed as heroes fighting the front line war against Islamification of their homeland.

If you are a Muslim, and believe in the Koran as all of them do, then you believe in conversion or death! That mentality presents an imminent threat against western civilization. If we are not willing to fight for our culture and heritage, then we might as well have beard patrols, and put our wives and daughters into burk-as now.

The world may not have liked George Bush, but he took a stand against radical Islam, even though under his administration more Muslim's migrated to the U.S. than at any other time in our short history.

Europe is at a cross roads, many European nations need to take a stand against their [B]Boarders[/B], Language's and Culture's being destroyed by the inappropriate influx of Muslim's.

Americas Right wing is finally waking up and marching in the streets, Europe needs to loose it's PEACE and HUG-A-THUG mentality, and fight against the invasion of your Nations.

This is just what one guy in Texas think's.

[Noxvayl]

Even if some cultures keep largely to themselves (and IMHO, some do) we have to ask ourselves why? And I suspect it'll be a mix of reasons.

There are, for instance, some significant parts of Luton where, as a white bloke, I've never felt especially welcome. There's a couple of shops where, initially at least, the reaction from Asian staff was .... distant and cool, if not cold. However, as I'm in there a fair bit, now I'm known and the reaction is friendly. So was the original 'cool' reaction because I wasn't Asian, or just because I was a stranger? Dunno, and frankly, don't care. I now get smiles and a pleasant chat ..... though I don't know if it would last if I tried to date the owner's daughter.

On the other hand, friends of mine are Ugandan Asians, who came here as kids when Amin booted them out of Uganda, in the early '70s. When we wonder why many Asians keep themselves to themselves and don't mix too much, it's hardly surprising to anyone that remembers how they were treated when they first arrived here. The general reaction was along the lines of "bleeping Paki, coming here and taking our jobs". Never mind that most of them came here and succeeded because, as in Uganda, they were enterprising folks that damn well worked their cojones off to succeed, in the face of a welcome often distinctly lacking in friendship or sympathy.

So if that generation of Asian immigrants prefer to mix with their own, perhaps it's because that's what we taught them with our welcome?

Another friend of mine is pushing 60, been here nearly all his life, with kids born here, spent most of his formative years in the British army, including more than one tour in Northern Ireland, at the height of the troubles, getting shot at on a regular basis. Yet a couple of years ago, we were on a job together when a "British" youth (skinhead haircut, mock combat fatigues and army boots) took it upon himself to call my mate a long string of very nasty names, about the mildest of which was "coon", together with the N-word several times. He was also referred to in terms I assume were supposed to indicate a West Indian religious grouping, yet he hails from South America.

The UK might not be anything like as racially aware as it was in those days of the Ugandan exodus, but we still have our share of ignorant louts. Small wonder, if you're subjected to that sort of thing, that communities tend to be insular.

I said I doubted my Asian shopkeeper friend would be thrilled if I was trying to date his daughter, but I equally suspect there'd be a large part of respectable white Britain that wouldn't be thrilled if his son was trying to date their white daughter.

Yes, there are immigrant communities that tend to mix largely with their "own", but perhaps it's because they're more comfortable with people that have a similar background, heritage, culture, language and religion ..... and perhaps it's also at least in part because they haven't exactly been welcomed with smiles and open homes by much of the indigenous white population.

And, for that matter, anyone noticed how Brits living abroad tend to cluster together? How there are thriving British ex-pat communities in, for instance, Spain ... and even in parts of the US? It seems when abroad, we tend to do exactly what we moan about when others do it here.

Well spoken as always. I must say I do concur with your assessment.

Being an immigrant myself I can confirm your points about us preferring to stick together. You see the difference in upbringing I have compared to brits I have met makes things I do and say seem very strange to them and vice versa. Its rather difficult to adjust to a new social setting specially when the one you come from is vastly different from the one you find yourself in. I come from a colony thus many british traditions still remain so I have a much easier time of adjusting than an Indian or Persian would. None the less it is still a rather difficult and troubling process and the welcome received only makes things worse.

This welcome and general attitude that the british public have towards immigrants breeds disdain amongst immigrants. I find many people I know who are also immigrants dislike the general british public and I too share this view thanks to the wonderful attitude the general public have towards us.

Its an unfortunate situation but it exists and one of the main reasons for its existence is ignorance. Since moving to the UK my dislike for ignorance has grown exponentially. Ignorance is a huge problem, more so than many would believe.

[ajones]

I think one of the few great things about this country is our tolerance of cultural diversity. I feel quite proud of the fact that we have so few problems regarding race/creed and colour here in the UK compared to other places. As with everything though, you will get clashes that if not properly controlled can flare up, but lets face it, these are far fewer given the population density of this country than you'd expect.

Yes they should be allowed to exist, but I also agree that we should enable our police forces with a little more power to safely control situations when unsavory clashes arise. There is a cost for the freedom that we enjoy.

[JPreston]

There are, for instance, some significant parts of Luton where, as a white bloke, I've never felt especially welcome. There's a couple of shops where, initially at least, the reaction from Asian staff was .... distant and cool, if not cold. However, as I'm in there a fair bit, now I'm known and the reaction is friendly. So was the original 'cool' reaction because I wasn't Asian, or just because I was a stranger?....

I am from Luton and think you're being a bit over-sensitive there, my experience is that everyone is happy to take my money with a smile . For example later today I plan to wander through Bury Park for a haircut at a barber's shop where as far as I can work out only one barber speaks enough English to understand what I ask for, on the basis that they are open all hours and charge only £4. These are obviously the very same shops that you've felt unwelcome in so I reckon the hyper-awareness of race rested predominatly with you....just a thought. As a corollary there are many, many more white faces in Bury Park today than at any point in the last 20 years on account of all the Poles.

You pick upon one of my biggest peeves there, Saracen - racists and their total failure to identify where someone's from. I'll forgive the guys that shout the word "paki" at my Iraqi friend, since he is at least from the Arabic world...

Neither Pakistan or Iraq are Arabic countries either

[texasguy]

Welcome to the United Islamic State of Europe, The year is 2075...Just paranoid delusions?...I don't think so.

Have you ever read the Koran? If so, you either suffer poor reading comprehension, or ignorantly pick and choose which parts of the Koran you want to understand. I understand that it is easier to just insult those with a different view other than the current liberal agenda. I also realize that the modern western liberal position is to live life feeling guilty for Englands imperalist past, and feeling the need to apologize at every given opportunity for who u are.

Muslims have had a long, dark tradition of relentless violence commited against "infidels." That is a fact of history. But you don't know that, do you?
Did you ever learn that Englands appeassment of Hitler didn't turn out that well either. Spend a Euro, and buy a history book.

Ask Nicholas Berg, Paul Johnson, Daniel Pearl, Eugene Armstrong how their personal experiences with radical Islam turned out. OOpS, u can't, everyone of them was decapitated, their heads where sawed off by the rusty blade of Islam, the great religion of peace and tollerance.

Here is a gem of a religious proverb for you: "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them." (Koran 8:12)
Don't argue that verse with me, Allah himself said that. The jihad that Muhammad called for is nothing less than world-wide terrorism. "Allah's Apostal said, killing disbelievers is a small matter to us" (Tabari IX:69)

Radical islam isn't a religion as much as it is a political movement with global aspirations. If you are so ignorant to believe that Moderate Muslims see you as an equal to them, and they do not subscribe to the same Koran that speaks of conversion of the infidels or death to them, then I don't know what else to say to you.

Christianity is being dissassembled faster than the World Trade Centers fell. Don't for one second think that the appeassment of these islamofascist will be acheived by just snapping the crosses off of every sacred structure in Europe. Inorder for a Muslim to acheive paradise requires converting you, or killing you. If you choose to have tea with Terrorists thats your choice, I wish you well, but because I choose to remember history, and understand that Islam, given the chance would kill me or my family because I refuse to bend the knee to Allah, respect my position as I will yours.

[TooNice]

I think we should put texasguy and IftikharA (from this thread) in a room together to work out their differences.

I wonder why I am still alive though. I've spent enough times with enough Muslims to be killed and buried several times over.

As for the Christianity being dissassembled, a lot of people here (non-Muslims) wouldn't mind. Historically, Christians have done their share of lynching the 'heretics'.

[0iD]

Aaah, the 'good old days' of the Knights Templar & the crusades.

[JPreston]

Never mind the good old days, fundamentalist terrorists murder homosexuals, abortionists and atheists to this day across the pond in Jesusistan.

[format]

If a man [meets] a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her ... He must marry the girl ... He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
-- Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (NIV)

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Leviticus 20:13

There was also the case of God commanding an entire city of gay people to be destroyed.

See also : The Crusades, The Inquisition, Witch Trials etc etc