Gordon Brown... i quite like him now

[kalniel]

First one. Northern Wreck.

Entirely GB's fault. He changed the legislation regarding lender of last resort. If the information had been able to disseminate in a slower controlled fashion, rather than spooking them, it wouldn't have happened.

Agreed - but they learned from it and the future measures were much better.

The difference is tories are honest about their spending and taxing.

I'm not so sure about that to be fair - I definitely agree some of the Labour things have been sneaker, but some haven't, and I really don't place any more faith that the Tory ones would be any more open - look how much difficulty they have talking about policy.

The republicans are a very different kettle of fish to the thatcheriate tories, or the cycling smily ones we have today, its not fair to draw direct parrallels.

I wasn't trying to draw direct parallels, just pointing out that a) this thing is global, and no matter our delusions of self importance, there really was little we could have done about it, and b) there are no general left/right conclusions you can draw about how well things could have gone otherwise.

Would the recession have been longer under the tories, lets look to our europian neighbours who are out of the first trough. We flew in harder, because we had more debt (or leverage), the more leverage you have, the better the highs, and the longer much more painful the lows.

I agree, but I think we would have flown in even harder under the Tories, not because of debt, but because of a more standoff-ish attitude and willingness to let companies go under. Our neighbours are out mostly because of the manufacturing capability (IMHO). Should we be arguing about who does more for UK manufacturing between Labour and the Tories? I have a suspition Labour would come out of that one better. I personally think that under Labour we'll be better placed when we're ready to come out of recession.. but it's almost six of one, half a dozen on the other. Labour plans high debt but better able to take advantage of the end of the recession, Tory plans lower debt but less able to take advantage of the end of the recession. Tories would argue that's the right way because of survival of the fittest and lower debt means lower taxes, Labour argue theirs is the better way because more employment means more ability to pay taxes and better mental health, crime etc.

I certainly recognise the credibilty of the Tory way, but I think the Labour way is also credible - they're just different philosophies, and personally the Labour one suits me more.

Do you think 15% vat helped? Even ze germans took the piss out of us for that. how many billion did that cost?

At least it was open and easy to understand though right? True, we did have the pee taken out, but while it didn't have the sudden effect I think it might have been helpful for counteracting the currency effect and it will probably help solve our deflation threat when it's raised again. I don't know if it was worth the money though.

What are your views on quantitative easing?

[TheAnimus]

i understand about national debt and also know exactly which state our goverment is in. i also remember what things were like last time the conservatives were in, also from the way you speak you have probably never applied or not needed to apply for tax credits, while they are hugely inefficient they are a lifeline for families like mine.

And even with tax credits my missus works full time and i do any work i can get around the kid being in school and even with the help we get we sit and watch our friends with big houses and flasher computers and bigger tellies getting 6-8k more a year for being on benefits.

So i have to look at making sure i get in no more debt rather than how much debt our leader gets us in, i also realise that we need to make cutbacks to services and thats fine aslong as its not the health service or schools.

Ok, you remeber the tories last time, well done, problem is we have NEVER seen a **** up like this before. The bank of england in its 400 year history has not seen bad times like this. Even when we lost the colonies such as the US which was a major blow at the time (and people will have actually suffered, i mean really suffered, not like you or I can imagine, watching people die for lack of simple food stuffs etc) the rate wasn't as bad as it is now.

Are you saying we should let it get worse?

I can not honestly comprehend how anyone could say that when they have a kid. Your not mortgaging your childs future, your condeming it. (unless you plan on moving to france say)

But the health service and schools are one of the problems. One in 8 people of working age are employed by the NHS apparently..... Wow. Look at the money squandered on consulants and the like. Yet simple things like a mate of mine who falls down the staircase because he was tired (was sober) gets told by A&E he has a sprain, no x-ray. Now his employer is footing the bill (haha) for having his foot broken and re-set. The NHS needs to pull its socks up. The problem is, I don't see how the tories will do it. But it can't be allowed to grow any more innefficent as it would under labour that is for sure.

[Brucelles]

I think it's necessary to vote out the incompetents currently in power, whoever they are. If I could do so and get the Lib dems elected I would probably do it, but I can't, so I will vote for 'Whomever is not Gordon'. Whatever else, he did cause the economic disaster and shows no sign of increased competence.

This isn't as negative as it seems; Labour has screwed up and needs to be punished as a lesson to the others. Whomever is next will try harder for the first term and will screw-up more during the second, at which point they will have become smug and superior, and I will vote for "Whomever is not David".

It's like turning over your vegetable patch. Some of the worse parasites get exposed to the birds and the sun, and the new pooh on top gets buried where it will feed the next crop.

[TheAnimus]

I'm not so sure about that to be fair - I definitely agree some of the Labour things have been sneaker, but some haven't, and I really don't place any more faith that the Tory ones would be any more open - look how much difficulty they have talking about policy.

The last budget, he taketh with one hand to give with the other.

Tories have never done anything like that previously?

I agree, but I think we would have flown in even harder under the Tories, not because of debt, but because of a more standoff-ish attitude and willingness to let companies go under. Our neighbours are out mostly because of the manufacturing capability (IMHO). Should we be arguing about who does more for UK manufacturing between Labour and the Tories? I have a suspition Labour would come out of that one better. I personally think that under Labour we'll be better placed when we're ready to come out of recession.. but it's almost six of one, half a dozen on the other. Labour plans high debt but better able to take advantage of the end of the recession, Tory plans lower debt but less able to take advantage of the end of the recession. Tories would argue that's the right way because of survival of the fittest and lower debt means lower taxes, Labour argue theirs is the better way because more employment means more ability to pay taxes and better mental health, crime etc.

So you think that the tories would of let more business go to the wall? Lets look at manafacturing actually, that died under labour, it was un-profitable, with people used to been paid frankly obsene amounts for work which others could do better for less. The tories took a hard line on it, and funnily enough its the jobs created by the tories, like the japs coming to sunderland that are in a better shape than those created by labour. Thats because the tories ones where bribes for companies to exploit cheap land/rates. Labour just rubbishrubbishrubbishrubbishrubbished money into it, which created very inefficent working practices, and for example some of the worst cars ever made, and some of the most expensive coal ever mined. In a recession week businesses die or need even more support, which adds to the debt, which devalues.......... I really can't see how labour can possibly argue that rubbishrubbishrubbishrubbishrubbishing money away helps, we have only historical evidence which shows it alarmingly accelerates declain, and slows recovery (often by decades see argentina).

At least it was open and easy to understand though right? True, we did have the pee taken out, but while it didn't have the sudden effect I think it might have been helpful for counteracting the currency effect and it will probably help solve our deflation threat when it's raised again. I don't know if it was worth the money though.

Ok lets focus on that simple point you made. Its postative feedback (ie very bad). Things cost more because the currency is devalued. People apparently still need these things, even thou they are not made in our country and buying more devalues us even further. Your going against the natural self correction if the vat reduction was 'free'. Only it wasn't it was billions more debt, which makes the currency de-value.......

Now whilst it would be impossible to work out how much it shifted by, and it was probably negligable, the principle is solid, and its another example of how irresponsible and reckless GB was/is.

What are your views on quantitative easing?

This is actually a very intresting topic worthy of its own thread imo.

[kalniel]

This is actually a very intresting topic worthy of its own thread imo.

You want to start it or shall I?