University Funding

[Saracen]

All the people I've met from Oxford have not been worth feeding.
I ignore degrees altogether. Do you have the Professional Quals and What work have you done ?

Unless Oxford (and maybe Cambridge) have changed a LOT (which, I admit, could be), you've been unlucky. I've met some very bright people from Oxbridge and, my conclusion is that most Oxbridge grads are still going to be at least among the best .... though there's plenty from other uni's that can say the same.

My problem with some Oxbridge grands .... in fact, with a proportion of all grads though it's a bit more prevalent from the "better" uni's is that though they might be good, they think they're a lot better than they are. They might be well-educated in a subject, but they often haven't yet worked out that subject knowledge is only half the game, and that they still start at the bottom and work up, because they still have a lot of real-world experience to gain, and often people skills too. The way it works in a cloistered academic environment and the way it works out in the big, bad world are usually very different, and some remarkably bright individuals can also be shockingly naive .... and sometimes, remarkably arrogant too.

These are generalisations and I don't label all Oxbridge grads that way, not by a large margin ... but a good number? Oh yeah.

And Animus is right about a bit of real world experience before uni being valuable too. Personally, I think it strengthens the actual education you get while at uni, as it gives a bit of perspective about that big bad world, and leaves a better rounded individual coming out. Aiming at a minimum of 21-ish is too much, though. Even a mandatory year out (doing something useful, not just dossing around the world) is a delay in starting a career ... but IMHO, a generally worthwhile one.

[Salazaar]

A friend of mine works above (and is de facto mentor to) an Oxford grad who is, apparently, a complete arse to work with. As Saracen pointed out, for all his qualifications, he lacks both the job and personal experience needed to really integrate with his team. However, he seems to think his qualifications give him higher status than his performance would merit.

I guess, partly, the problem stems from the fact that Oxbridge take a large proportion of their students from public schools, which themselves foster a pretty elitist attitude among their students.

[pollaxe]

The Oxbridge mafia run the country... probably less true than it was but still applicable..

All the people on my course (Uni of Wales) who got firsts were on first name terms with the tutors. Apparently I missed one by about 2-3% but that's because I refused to go to 18th Century course lectures as I was a medievalist and they didn't warn me about modern stuff like that on the course when I applied!!

[TheAnimus]

cut off nose to spite face?

[pollaxe]

Nah, my face isn't worth spiting tbh. I stand by my decision anyway..

[Powderhound]

Snip ____ology is on the up turn/Snip

Bloody biologists.

But going back to the idea of Oxbridge people always being the best, the huge exception to that is medicine. Although I am currently in the process of applying for medicine at Cambridge, I have heard from several doctors that Oxbridge medics aren't always the best, simply because they lack the people skills to work effectively as doctors.

Also, re the comment that medics shouldn't start early, I'd actually say it's the other way round. Medicine is such a massive commitment (You're talking 10-15 years before you're fully qualified), I'd say it's the field you would probably benefit most from having an opportunity to take a bit of time out to ensure that it's right for you before you commit to it. Possibly an American style post-grad only system is the way forward here.

[TheAnimus]

Also, re the comment that medics shouldn't start early, I'd actually say it's the other way round. Medicine is such a massive commitment (You're talking 10-15 years before you're fully qualified), I'd say it's the field you would probably benefit most from having an opportunity to take a bit of time out to ensure that it's right for you before you commit to it. Possibly an American style post-grad only system is the way forward here.

Very true, there are plenty of highly esoteric subjects, like the level of knowledge required for medicen, where the generalisations regarding 90% of the population do not apply.

[Powderhound]

Oh great, my attempt at appearing to be Mr Intellectual Oxbridge applicant included "I'd say" twice in the sentence.

Actually since I'm also a medic, regard the second as bad handwriting that actually says "argue".

[Steve]

refused to go to 18th Century course lectures as I was a medievalist

You bloody medievalists, coming over here, taking our jobs. Refusing to go to lectures we've paid for. Using our NHS. Damn you!

And don't get me started on the Tudors amongst us.

In all seriousness though, here are things I've learned, having graduated:

1. Not everybody should go to uni.
2. Not all courses should be valued the same.
3. Anyone who walks out of uni thinking they know everything and deserve a job, does not know anything or deserve a job.

[pollaxe]

Medics and bad handwriting go together.

My writing style sucks, considering it's supposed to be semi clever stuff (at times) I notice I repeat myself (at times) which annoys me at the time when I notice it. Tautology 'r' Us. Anyway, being at work doesn't help and neither does being at work.

You bloody medievalists, coming over here, taking our jobs. Refusing to go to lectures we've paid for. Using our NHS. Damn you!

And don't get me started on the Tudors amongst us.

Don't make me come down there and wave my Scrofula at you!!!!

[kidzer]

In fact, I'd go as far to say as no one under 21 should attend university, unless they're training on something particularly long term (e.g. medicine).

Slightly (well, very - possibly) OT, but that amuses me slightly;

I turn 21 next July, I'll also graduate (hopefully!) with my degree about 2 weeks before that!

[shadowmaster]

Bloody biologists.

But going back to the idea of Oxbridge people always being the best, the huge exception to that is medicine. Although I am currently in the process of applying for medicine at Cambridge, I have heard from several doctors that Oxbridge medics aren't always the best, simply because they lack the people skills to work effectively as doctors.

Also, re the comment that medics shouldn't start early, I'd actually say it's the other way round. Medicine is such a massive commitment (You're talking 10-15 years before you're fully qualified), I'd say it's the field you would probably benefit most from having an opportunity to take a bit of time out to ensure that it's right for you before you commit to it. Possibly an American style post-grad only system is the way forward here.

I will concur with this. I've seen quite a few Oxbridge medics come down to London for their clinical years and when it comes to dealing with patients a 4 year old could do a better job. Not all of them are bad and they really do know their 'book knowledge' but thats only half of being a decent doctor.

Tbh medicine is a life long commitment, and taking a year out after A levels is not a bad idea to gain some maturity. If I had the choice again I might as well have done, but then again the degree takes 6 bloody years to complete and its fair enough if one would want to finish as quickly as possible

[Kumagoro]

I think there should be a system where by for certain degree types you should have your tuition
fees paid back if you achieve a 1st and half if you get a 2.i (just so it would have included me haha
although I was in the last year which got it free).

If there was say a shortage of quality ophthalmologists they could run it for a couple of years at
certain uni's and then switch to other areas and so forth. It may also encourage students to actually try.

[SeriousSam]

Even in my day Universities had started running "refresher courses" alongside their main syllabus to make sure people were up to the same standard, and that was back in 1989. Admittedly that was Astrophysics so the requirements were rather tough, especially on the Maths side where there were issues with some of the examining boards being “easier” than others. So sliding standards are hardly new, but it has seen a definitely seen an acceleration in the past decade or so.

I tutored both my younger brother and sister through their exams and was staggered by the changes I saw in both the breadth of syllabus and difficulty of the exams they did. One of the key changes was to the questions themselves; with students being led through to answers and questions being broken down so that they could get marks more easily even if they didn’t do the whole question.

Now I am unashamedly an educational elitist, in as much as exam passes should actually mean something. They should be hard and only a certain proportion of the populous should be able to achieve them. Anything else devalues them and makes a mockery of the situation, which is where we have found ourselves now.

I could spend hours and many pages of soap-boxing on this subject, but the sad truth is that the whole education system needs a radical overhaul and needs to be aligned with a far more comprehensive apprenticeship system for those not academically inclined.

Oh and I wouldn’t touch an Oxbridge Graduate with a bargepole, even a First, but then I’m from a science background and in my day they were all poetry reading pansies

[Clunk]

Don't make me come down there and wave my Scrofula at you!!!!

[pollaxe]

^I was young and needed the work!