For those who know about law

[Saracen]

Thoughts on insurance avenues?

Dunno if you mean my thoughts, but if so, I did wonder. But I've got a pretty thorough domestic policy with fairly extensive "all risk" cover but from memory (and I haven't checked) I don't think it gets anywhere near £3k-£4k of cover for cash. £500 maybe. I mean, camera gear etc. is worth more than that and covered, as are some other items, but cash usually has a fairly onerous restriction on it simply because it'd be too easy to abuse .... for example, by a faked mugging.

If the cover exists, great. Problem solved. It's certainly worth checking into. And I'd be delighted to be wrong about it, but I rather doubt it does.

[neonplanet40]

Thoughts on insurance avenues?

Not sure if there is any to be honest......

[neonplanet40]

Many thanks Saracen. I'll let you guys know what happened. I've told me mum to reserve judgment till she knows more. And i also told her that she should be able to see a receipt of the money being taken out on Friday to prove that it was indeed taken out. The police have already been notified so we will see what happens.

Many thanks for your replies!!

[Saracen]

Your welcome, Neon. I hope it some small way it helps, but I rather doubt anything I can say will. It's never nice to be done over for that type of money, it's certainly not nice to be kippered for it when money is tight and it's especially nasty to be done at this time of year. I hope it in some way works out for your Mum.

[neonplanet40]

Well slight update guys,

Mum rang the woman at the police station today. Basically my mother did not have to say a thing. The police woman said that this girls 'statement' was dubious at best. Times and amounts of money changing etc. They don't believe a word of it!

So they are going to the Credit Union tomorrow to check how much this girl withdrew (It seems she did not withdraw the amount she needed to pay everyone she owed money too). They will also be checking CCTV from this bank and the town to go through the times etc.

Also it seems they are bringing her in for questioning where the police woman said she was going to "lean on her" a bit to get the truth out. She told my mother that she would most likely not see her money again but what she would get it peace of mind. She also told me mother that she would NOT drop this and would see it through to the end.

She will be back to the office on Friday and will be ringing my mother up.

Good start i think. Shows this girl was lying though. What can she get for making up a fake mugging and wasting police time?

Mark

[Rave]

And they're not just NI, Neon, they operate all over the place. They used to be quite common but had, as I understand it, somewhat fallen out of favour in recent years. But there's certainly been something ogf a resurgence in the last few years, and the failure of that "Christmas Club" company, whatever it was called, a year or two back encouraged it.

That'd be Farepak. Just what I thought on reading the initial post TBH- Farepak on a smaller scale.

I'm very glad to hear that the police are taking it seriously Neon. But I'm 95% certain the money's gone. There are three possible explanations IMO- 1) the woman has some sort of serious mental issue and honestly thought she could get away with it with no repercussions 2) she's massively in debt already and has been spending the money on paying the rent or her credit card bills 3) she's some sort of addict and has spent the money on booze/drugs/bingo etc.

Fingers crossed for you though.

[Michael]

I just say mug the woman yourself when she gets her christmas wages.

[peterb]

I just say mug the woman yourself when she gets her christmas wages.

Hmm - yes - then you can get yourself a criminal record and loose any chance of getting compensation - and probably end up compensting the victim at your own court case.

Neon - hope that you obtain some justice through the police investigation - it sounds as if they have an idea of what has been going on.

I suspect Rave's suppositions are close to the truth - although it is possible thatthe woman did set pout to steal, it may be that she succumbed to temptation.

If it does go to court, the court may make an order for her to repay the money, but as Sracen said in an earlier post, it is one thing to get the court order - it ois another to actually gain anything. There are also victim compenstion funds, so she may get something from that, but it won't be until the case gets to court - if it is pursued that far. It is cold comfort, but I think it is accept that the money has gone - anything you might get back would be a bonus.

[Michael]

Hmm - yes - then you can get yourself a criminal record and loose any chance of getting compensation - and probably end up compensting the victim at your own court case.

You can always count on Hexus if you want to be taken seriously with an obviously non serious comment.

[Saracen]

..... What can she get for making up a fake mugging and wasting police time?

Well, that's pretty wide open.

"Wasting police time" is a specific offence, s5(2) Criminal Law Act 1967. As I understand it, that could lead to 6 months inside and/or a Level 4 (up to £2500) fine but the actual sentence would vary according to circumstances, as would even the likelihood of prosecution. For instance, the more serious the impact of the false statement, the more serious the sentence is likely to be. If significant police time is wasted (i.e. larger numbers of man hours) or significant cost incurred, prosecution is more likely. An example of "significant cost" might be if it resulted in a police helicopter being deployed, or numbers of officers deployed on a search. If individuals were to be arrested as a result, it notches up the seriousness again and if they were to spend significant time detained, or worse yet, get convicted and jailed, so it gets even more serious. One case (a false rape allegation, R v Fletcher [2006]) resulted in a two year sentence. General guidelines suggest "false allegation of crime resulting in arrest of innocent person .... 4 to 12 months." Source - Crown Prosecution Service Sentencing Manual.

Of course, as it tends up that scale, so 'wasting police time' and 'perverting the course of justice' (or 'attempting' to do so) overlap, and at some point, attention will switch to the more serious offences, and certainly, 'perverting' or 'attempting to pervert' carry more serious sentences than the 6 months possible for 'wasting police time'. And if anyone else is involved, then 'conspiracy to pervert' might get added too.

From the sound of it, the police didn't really believe her from the start, so it's highly unlikely anyone would have got arrested, and if they had serious doubts, probably didn't spend much time investigating, maybe other than with a view to whether it was a false report of not. And as I understand it, the Director of Public Prosecutions must approve any such prosecutions, and it's therefore down to whether it's in the public interest to prosecute or not.

So what she "could" get is quite a long jail sentence. It's the same category of offence that, IIRC, saw Jonathan Aitken and Geoffrey Archer end up behind bars. But given the circumstances, I personally rather doubt if it'll get prosecuted, much less involve jail time, unless there's a lot more to it and her than we know (like a track record of doing this). I wouldn't be surprised if, assuming the police investigation gets anywhere, if it didn't end up with them giving her a damn good scare, perhaps a few sleepless nights worrying about it, and a caution.

But on a brighter note .... it might put her in a rather awkward spot, if played right, and just might offer your Mum some chance of getting her money back. I mentioned earlier that "theft" required dishonesty, but it also requires 'intent to permanently deprive' someone of their property.

This might now put this woman between a rock and a hard place. One of the factors affecting likelihood of prosecution is whether a p3rson making a false report persists in it when challenged. Making a false report is one thing, but if challenged (and it sounds like the policewoman intends to) and you insist on sticking to a false report, the chances of getting prosecuted go up. But if she doesn't stick to it ... and here's the interesting bit then she's admitted that it's false, and that therefore there's no reason to not pay your Mum back the £800, is there? Unless, of course, she doesn't have it, in which case the false police report looks to be strong evidence of a 'dishonest intent to permanently deprive' your Mum and the others of their money.

So, with a bit of luck and perhaps a word with the police officer about the implications, it might be able to present her with three options :-

- face being charged with wasting police time if not admitting the false report, or
- if admitting the false report, paying the money back of risking being charged with theft, or
- paying the money back, admitting the false report and hoping to get off with a caution.

I don't want to raise false hopes and I still think this is a bit of a long shot, but its about the first real hope I've seen in this of getting any money back at all. It might be worth trying to suggest this sort of thing to the police officer. Certainly, natural justice would be to use this to squeeze the woman that apparently took the money into giving it back to the real victims ....assuming the mugging is fabricated, of course.

[neonplanet40]

Thanks very much for the thoughtful reply Saracen. Its greatly appreciated and highly informative. I will let you know what happens as and when it does. I will also keep what you've said in mind when i speak to the police myself on Friday.

Many Thanks

Mark

[Zak33]

you might want to consider also "threatening" to tell the Inland Revenue, as she's had up to £4000 of money come through "her" account, and they'll NEED to know it's not all hers.

If the Police tell them that she's had it away, and not had it nicked, she'll also owe Her Maj some tax

spiteful I know.. but it's true.

Then they'll begin to look into her lifestyle, and what she has purchased and what she earns, what clothes, car, mobile, sky, bills etc she pays....

it gets messy

[neonplanet40]

Well guys ain't updated in ages because nothing has happened. Police never bothered to do anything or update my mum. And for this reason my mum just dropped it and enjoyed her christmas. Puts a lot of faith in where your tax money goes...

Thanks for all the help from everyone here though.

[Andeh13]

Well guys ain't updated in ages because nothing has happened. Police never bothered to do anything or update my mum. And for this reason my mum just dropped it and enjoyed her christmas. Puts a lot of faith in where your tax money goes...

Thanks for all the help from everyone here though.

I am genuinely gutted for you mate, have you tried chasing the coppers up over it? Keeping pressing them until you get an answer?


Sorry again mate, if its any consolation in the big scheme of things £4k isnt much. A big holiday maybe, cheap car, iv paid more then that on insurance in the last few years and have got sod all to show for it.

[neonplanet40]

I am genuinely gutted for you mate, have you tried chasing the coppers up over it? Keeping pressing them until you get an answer?


Sorry again mate, if its any consolation in the big scheme of things £4k isnt much. A big holiday maybe, cheap car, iv paid more then that on insurance in the last few years and have got sod all to show for it.

No to be honest I would but my mum said she just wanted to forget about it. And if they really didnt care that much she wasn't going to chase them about like a beggar.

I guess in the end i'm not suprised. Police in N.I have long been seen as useless. Nothing has changed. And I know im not the only one who wishes it was the older days when there were people you could call in to see to sort these kinds of things out for you.

But yea. Police 1 - My family 0

[neonplanet40]

Well guys my mum did perservere and the woman was arrested yesterday. Seems she went to the credit union to ask for a loan so she could pay the money back to people..... which they refused her. The woman then claimed a mugging which never actually took place so she has wasted police time. The local paper even had a part in it about her being mugged before christmas and how bad this was to happen etc. Joke.

Not sure if she will get anything more than a slap on the wrist but my mum and all the other people who saved are bringing the woman to the small claims court. The police have also said they will fill out all the forms for my mother to bring her to the small claims court.

So yea my mum might not get her money BUT she will get some small sense of justice.

Serves this woman right. Doing something like that before xmas is dispicable.