[Rant]Hitler wasn't an atheist.

[chuckskull]

Right this Hitler thing is getting real old, he was a baptised Roman Catholic and a creationist, no not the modern young earth creationist kind. Creationist in the sense that he believed God created humans as told in Genesis, that Aryan's were created above all others and Jesus was Aryan who struggled against the Jews. As a child he wished to be a priest and the coat of arms of the monastic school he attended is generally considered his inspiration for the Nazi use of the swastika, which it contained and was likely the first place he ever saw the symbol.

Now before we go any further; let me make one thing clear. This isn't a 'Hitler was Christian, so all Christians are evil', Strawman BS argument, I'm merely tired of him being used in that context against Atheists, by people as varied as the Pope and posters on this very forum with ever increasing frequency. The fact of it is anyone who kills in the name of Jesus is an ignorant fool with no understanding of Jesus' message and I'd even go so far as to say that calling them a 'Christian', regardless of how much they idolise him or how much they do in his name, is patently ridiculous, but that's another thread. If you want to disagree with me or even hate me, do it because of what you think of my belief's not because someone told you the bogeyman was on my side and the same goes for everyone else and their belief's too. Guilt by association is illogical in the absurd in the first place.

But Chuck what about all those anti-Christian quotes from Hitler? Oh you mean the one's like this;

I shall never come to terms with the Christian lie. . .

and

Our epoch will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity

Well those are from a little book called "Hitler's Table Talk", not written by Hitler, published after his death. Translated first into French and then from French into English, not a very good way to translate I'm sure you'll agree, which might be why these quotes aren't in the original German version of the book, and even if they were could at best be considered hearsay, but what can you expect when you take the word of a man like François Genoud, the original translator, as gospel. Who by the way was not present at any of the alleged conversations.

That was the closest thing to documentary evidence of Hitler's Atheism that I have ever seen presented and now that's debunked, let's take a look at the actual documentary evidence, well not all of it, as going over every piece of supporting evidence would literally(and I do mean literally, not figuratively) be a lifetimes work, comprising of thousands of hours of video, audio, transcripts and actions.



An unfettered, unedited primary source containing 720pages written by the man himself on his beliefs, desires, goals and rationalisations for being an evil little scrote. This is actual documentary evidence of his beliefs compared to the hearsay of earlier, it even has an official English translation authorised by Hitler and the Nazi Party, how convenient. Let's have a look...

"For it was by the Will of God that men were made of a certain bodily shape, were given their natures and their faculties."

In accordance with the above belief Darwin's Origin of Species was on the Nazi banned books list.

For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: 'Lord, make us free!' is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: 'Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!'

On a related note prayer in school was mandatory under the Nazi regime on Hitler's direct orders.

Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time.

In short, the results of miscegenation are always the following: (a) The level of the superior race becomes lowered; (b) physical and mental degeneration sets in, thus leading slowly but steadily towards a progressive drying up of the vital sap. The act which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged.

Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.

It doesn't dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest culture-race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions.

I could go on but that seems rather conclusive(and horrible) to me and is certainly enough focus on a singular source among so many.

But Chuck you silly boy, Hitler only became an atheist later in life that book was published in the 1920's. Well let's take a look at that point again, with actual evidence rather than hearsay, just in case debunking Table Talk wasn't enough.

I was going to post quotes from the entire duration of the war in Europe by year, but this post in long enough already so I'll just focus on a couple of crucial years, where you could reasonably argue Hitler's faith would be most tested. First 1941- The year war in Europe became truly global with the attack on Pearl Harbour and the opening of the eastern front against Russia by the Nazi's, widely regarded as the beginning of the end for Nazi Germany.

I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.

Only when the entire German people become a single community of sacrifice can we expect and hope that Almighty God will help us. The Almighty has never helped a lazy man. He does not help the coward. He does not help a people that cannot help itself.

Now 1945 the year of his final downfall, his impending defeat now apparent to all, including himself, German forces are now in full retreat on both fronts, the Allies are within 50miles of Berlin and the city is pummelled by up to a 1000 bombers almost nightly leading to his final delusional rants and eventual suicide at the end of April in that year.

God the Almighty has made our nation. By defending its existence we are defending His work...

This Jewish bolshevist annihilation of nations and its western European and American procurers can be met only in one way: by using every ounce of strength with the extreme fanaticism and stubborn steadfastness that merciful God gives to men in hard times for the defense of their own lives...

I hope that will lay this horse manure to rest, at least in this little corner of the internet anyway, Goebbels taught us all what happens if you repeat a lie often enough. So please when you hear people spouting this tripe correct them. It's not only insulting to use him as a stick to beat Atheists with but a disgrace and dishonour to all those who made such terrible sacrifices to stop this mad man and suffered and died under his rule to twist history, and it is their history, not his, not yours, to a personal political goal. I understand the desire for Christians to distance themselves from him, but condemnation and vigilance against it happening again is plenty without trying to faust him on another belief system, we all know no-one who could ever truly be described as Christian would behave in such a way.

The man who does not do his own thinking is a slave, and is a traitor to himself and to his fellow-men. - Ingersoll

[Terbinator]

we all know no-one who could ever truly be described as Christian would behave in such a way.

And thats why there is no such thing as a Christian and religion is fundamentally flawed.

[chuckskull]

And thats why there is no such thing as a Christian and religion is fundamentally flawed.

If you want to discuss dogma, faith vs atheism etc, please start your own thread or necro one of the others. I'll even join in, that's not what this is about.

Those points are tangental and only meant to reinforce my desire not to appear as an attack on Christians, which would lead to my actual point being totally ignored or a game of pass the evil parcel. My only goal here is a truthful representation of a historical figure.

[samcross]

Cool story, bro

[jim]

Hitler believed in "positive Christianity" as I understand it. The idea that Jesus was some sort of crusader against the Jews, a representative of Christianity who would go and vanquish the Jews.

Certainly not a model that many Christians nowadays would subscribe to, so calling it Christianity is a bit misleading.

You also have to consider that he had to put himself across as a Christian - no-one would've given him an ounce of respect had he been an atheist, especially the 1941 quote to a general. Army generals in particular were from rich backgrounds with good educations and solid Christian values - the idea that he was a Christian was very important. Many of those who resisted did so on religious grounds, even if the Churches themselves stood still. His quotes are completely meaningless.

He didn't tell the people of Germany he was gassing the Jews, so do you suppose the holocaust never happened?

[jim]

I should add a few of my thoughts that the above may be influenced by (I'm not saying you think any of these, but for some people they are fact/commonly held beliefs, so I should point out my thinking):

The idea that Hitler was some sort of anti-christ, and hence was so evil, is completely ridiculous. He was a perfectly normal bloke by most accounts, unless you want to compartmentalise everyone.

Did he believe in some form of Christianity? Maybe. Is it relevant? Not really. His interpretation of it, if he was religious, clearly wasn't the one that most Christians ascribe to.

Equally as ridiculous as suggesting he was an anti-Christian, and that religion won out in the end, is to imply that he was religious and therefore religion is evil.

Finally, do Hitler's personal beliefs really matter a whole lot? One thing I would say for sure is that his nationalism mattered above all else, including religion. Protestants and Catholics in general should be ashamed of Nazism - not because of Hitler's personal beliefs, which don't matter one jot - but because the vast majority stood by and watched. The Catholic and Protestant Churches were one of the sole organisations that could have halted Nazism in its tracks, and they did absolutely nothing. Niemoller and a few select others did something, but they were very much in the minority. If anything, that's what's shocking about religion and Nazism, not Hitler himself.

[malfunction]

Apparently he wasn't a vegetarian either. But he was a complete bastard.

[chuckskull]

I have to say I agree with a lot of your points Jim, but Hitler's belief's do matter, as much as I wish and most right thinking people probably wish they didn't. If the world had never heard of Hitler, he had never risen to power and instead rotted in the jail who wrote Mein Kampf in I would be very happy, but he did rise to power, he did start the largest war and perpetrate the worst crimes of the century and some of the worst in the history of humanity. Members of my family and barring incredible good fortune yours too, are dead because of him and many left with terrible scars mental and physical. Making anything to do with him deeply personal to me and most people, even before he was used as a stick to beat my belief system with. It's why he makes such an effective stick.

He still affects our lives; the lives of people born decades after his death to this day. As much as I hate him and everything he stood for, he is one of the most, if not the most influential people of the modern age. If we do not understand him, his evil and how he gained the influence to inflict his evil on so many we are destined to repeat the mistakes of the past. Disgracing the memory of those of died and consigning many more to death. Nazism, anti-Semitism and fascism are on the rise again all over the world and if we do not heed the lessons of WW2, we will repeat the whole thing with greater killing power than ever before.

He many not have been reading out tallies of Jew's killed on the radio, but the German people were well aware of the murder of the Jew's, it was by no means hidden, the prejudice, abuse and murder were all done openly, his political campaigns were based on the rampant anti-Semitism of the time.

In the grander scheme of things those quotes might not seem relevant but when there are a great number of people determined to rewrite history for their own ends, namely trying to very deliberately associate the Nazi's and Atheism intimately. The people behind these lies would love nothing more for my beliefs to be seen by the common man as akin or even equal to Hitler's and met with the same hatred and disgust and starting to work. You can make all the suppositions you want, but the facts can only come from the horses mouth, so I'm going to quote the horse as it is the only defence against this deceitful prejudice becoming 'truth'. He considered himself Christian, that's what's at issue, not what others might think of him, and that's what others are seeking obfuscate and twist.

50 years ago you would have been laughed at for believing he was anything other than a religious fanatic, now you, an otherwise sane and right thinking man from what I can tell, are willing to accept he was "maybe" religious, in spite of the overwhelming evidence in front of you. What will otherwise right thinking men think in another 50 years then? If this lie continues to be perpetuated and what will they do with that belief? Twisting the past and the truth can have consequences sometimes truly terrible there are few examples of this are better than WW2 as this is a tactic the Nazis themselves.

And no he wasn't a vegetarian, his favourite food was sausages. Although he did observe a vegetarian diet on doctors orders at some points in his life.

[Knoxville]

Godwins law is right out the window here

[chuckskull]

Godwins law is right out the window here

I divided Godwin's law by zero.

[Rave]

This is probably the most well researched post I have ever read on Hexus. I was stunned. I must admit that I'm a cynical bastard, so I chucked a few random phrases into google to make sure you hadn't lifted it wholesale from somewhere else- no evidence of that that I could find, I'm very pleased to say.

So I thanked you once- I'd thank you three times if it was possible, because I've never seen a historical argument of that quality outside of the academic papers I've been exposed to as the editor of my wife's essays for her OU Masters. Do you have a History degree? Because I reckon you'd get a First very easily at the OU with that level of analysis and lucid presentation.

All I would say is that I very much dislike this recent trend of antagonism between atheists and religious people, stoked on both sides, though on the atheist side I would cite Richard Dawkins as being a particular antagoniser. I'm 100% atheist, but I wouldn't ever bother to try and evangelise to people who derive great comfort from their religion. I think the focus should be on what is best for humanity. I would rather try and persuade a Catholic that god loves people, made them clever and creative, and wants them to be happy, and hence is alright with them using contraception to enjoy sex without the risk of pregnancy- than try to persuade them that god doesn't exist. I think the former option is easier and far nicer.

I might be a bit happier if I thought this life of mine- at least a third of which has already gone by- was just a step on the way to eternal happiness in heaven- but I just cannot believe that. I don't want to talk anyone else out of it.

But also, TBH, what's so fantastic that you'd want to do it forever? My idea of heaven would be riding superbikes during the day, and copping off with large breasted women at night. But after 20 years or so I'd probably have had my fill. I can honestly say that in fact the idea of living forever properly scares me- because what I hate most of all in life is boredom, and surely there must come a point where you've done it all?

Maybe when you die god puts you on a spaceship so you can go round the universe sampling the delights of other galaxies. I daresay there's a lot of interesting stuff out there. But you'd still get fed up of the travelling eventually, surely?

Am I alone in thinking that living forever would in fact be a massive bore?

[jim]

Hitler's belief's do matter, as much as I wish and most right thinking people probably wish they didn't. If the world had never heard of Hitler, he had never risen to power and instead rotted in the jail who wrote Mein Kampf in I would be very happy, but he did rise to power, he did start the largest war and perpetrate the worst crimes of the century and some of the worst in the history of humanity.

I agree, but I think people spend far too long objectifying the man, turning him into a scientific experiment. He really wasn't, in my personal view, a particularly special person. A great orator, yes. But he wasn't particularly intelligent, he didn't have particularly inspiring traits or contributions to society, and he didn't lead a particularly effective government.

The longer we look at him as some great "master of evil", the less we look and say "How did an ordinary person get placed on a pedestal of enormous power without any of several million people so much as batting an eyelid?

The way some people talk about him, as some sort of bizarre off-shoot of humanity, you'd think it could never happen again. Perhaps they're right, but I think that's very optimistic.

I would far prefer it if everyone was a bit less sensationalist, a bit less obsessed with the man himself, and said instead: "How did somebody who wasn't particularly unique or special come to a position where he was able to decide the fates of millions of innocents?", rapidly followed by "could we ever end up in this situation again?". Given the way some people talk about politics these days, I don't think they've learned anything from an enormous tragedy. Is that because they think he was a once-in-a-millennium monster, an antichrist of some degree? I think that is, to an extent, true.

He still affects our lives; the lives of people born decades after his death to this day. As much as I hate him and everything he stood for, he is one of the most, if not the most influential people of the modern age. If we do not understand him, his evil and how he gained the influence to inflict his evil on so many we are destined to repeat the mistakes of the past. Disgracing the memory of those of died and consigning many more to death. Nazism, anti-Semitism and fascism are on the rise again all over the world and if we do not heed the lessons of WW2, we will repeat the whole thing with greater killing power than ever before.

Agreed, but as above - I think you've got to question how much his personality and belief system is a viable explanation.

As you can see, I'm not exactly an intentionalist, to say the least.

He considered himself Christian, that's what's at issue, not what others might think of him, and that's what others are seeking obfuscate and twist.

50 years ago you would have been laughed at for believing he was anything other than a religious fanatic, now you, an otherwise sane and right thinking man from what I can tell, are willing to accept he was "maybe" religious, in spite of the overwhelming evidence in front of you. What will otherwise right thinking men think in another 50 years then? If this lie continues to be perpetuated and what will they do with that belief? Twisting the past and the truth can have consequences sometimes truly terrible there are few examples of this are better than WW2 as this is a tactic the Nazis themselves.

I still don't agree with you I'm afraid. You keep saying that it's 100% clear that he's Christian, but the truth is that we will never know how he felt.

I can guarantee you one thing: assuming he was mentally capable of deciding his religion (and I think that much is obvious), he could not possibly have been a Christian in the way I consider the word. However, I suspect that's a moot point.

To outline my thoughts fairly bluntly:

1) 1930s Germany was a thoroughly Christian nation, so in spreading concepts to the general populace, you would utilise Christian ideas and terminology.
2) Hitler introduced some very controversial (unless you're Daniel Goldhagen) concepts to the German people: basically hatred.
3) Many people disagreed. Had Hitler been an athest, people could have used it as a weakness against him, calling him evil.
4) Much resistance against him was based on religious grounds. The more people that believed Hitler was a Christian, the fewer that would agree to resist. This goes more than any other group for the Churches, I would suggest.

Hitler had everything to lose by not being a Christian, and everything to gain by being one.

He wrote and said what he wanted people to hear, not what he actually thought.

--

I think, ultimately, we both agree on the main point here. Whether Hitler was an atheist or not, acting like he represents all that atheism stands for is a sick joke. It is no different, really, to grabbing any crazy gun-toting racist Christian and suggesting that they represent all that religion stands for. And all it comes down to is pathetic mud-slinging from one side to another.

What I'm saying here is that I don't believe we'll ever know what Hitler's beliefs were, because A) he could and probably would have lied and B) his beliefs could and probably did alter through his life, and that furthermore I don't know of how much value it is as a discussion. Whilst it's interesting from an academic point of view, I cannot honestly see how it would progress our understanding of Nazism to an extent that's actually beneficial to any of us for the future safety (and sanity) of the planet.

[format]

Will comeback to this thread tomorrow when i am not drunk. Looks interesting
!

[SeriousSam]

Rave
I think the antagonism is only going to grow as both sides of the argument are entrenching themselves and drawing battle lines. In some ways this has been brewing since the days of Copernicus, when science first questioned the "word of God" as expoused by man. As we could be described as living in the grey area where the rising ape meets the falling angel, then perhaps this ongoing confrontation is inevitable. An interesting comparison would be to look at what happened in the middle east during the period where they made advances in science, pre the early crusades possibly (my history is very patchy in this respect), and how circumstances brought about a more dominant position for religion.

This in itself would be an interesting thread, so I'll stop there rather than derailing the initial discussion point.

chuckskull
Excellent post, Hitler is a great example of a man who is "demonised" is order to help us obfuscate the fact that in times of hardship we as a species are far too easily swayed by emotional rhetotic, be that for "good or evil". Though even those terms hide the fact that actions with good intentions can make situations worse, such is the danger of acting on feelings.

[TeePee]

Christians are very quick to say that because his actions and beliefs are incompatible with theirs he couldn't possibly be christian. The dispute here is really how a christian is defined.

History is rife with individuals and groups who were as christian as they came, but looking back we would question them. Before someone yells crusades or witch burning, an example of this might be slave owners in the Southern US, the 'Bible belt'. Now no-one would claim they persecuted slaves only because they were christian. But at the same time it's hard to dispute that they were christian, even if their actions don't fit with our idealised view.

We can't define a christian as perfect biblical individual within our modern perspective. The well researched evidence above certainly supports the idea that Hitler was a believer in a christian god, and I don't see what would be needed beyond that.

We also define Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Branch Davidians as christian, even if they don't agree in everything they believe.

[petercook7]

The real issue is that the Jews hate all other religions, and think there’s only one.
The Jewish state has gone against may of its own religious beliefs in order to protect its religion. Both if not all religions are bad as each other as they are held hostage to human interventions. The major issue i have each religion tries to tell everyone else there is the truth and only truth, once someone has to convince you that theirs is the truth then it normally is the opposite. Then you have Hitler propaganda by the church that he wasn’t Christian , then you have the Jews altering history tweaking it every so often saying he was evil, the church had no alternative but to say what hey say, .
So if there was really a christ wouldn’t the anti Christ be the Jewish religion? if there wasn’t then it would make Christianity look evil but didn’t the Jews give up Christ and indirectly cause his death, could this be a hidden war between religions, Jewish using the power of money and propaganda, Christians and Muslim using the power of war? But now the Christians seeing that power and propaganda are more power that physical attacks


If there was such visitation wouldn’t it happen again, before it was just a small part of the world, now the problem has expanded around the world, I personally belive in the universe/s as my faith, i was created by the universe and will be passed back to the universe.