Piracy

[roachcoach]

@TooNice - Certainly true of platform variance in rates. The problem with simply not buying is it often causes devs to abandon the platform (irrespective of said platform, some PC>Console ports suffered the same fate) rather than stick with it and improve the next effort.

To a degree I can understand this 'crap sales dont bother mentality', but surely any company who releases a disappointing product should be doing some sort of post release investigation as to why. Perhaps they are, perhaps they are not. Either way it takes a gutsy individual in this day and age to say "yeah, we totally screwed the pooch there". Passing blame is much easier/safer these days. In almost every company I worked in (sadly), the attitude is "what happened" and fixes are based on this, almost never do people ask "why did this happen, lets fix that". A lot of conjecture there, but it sure wouldn't surprise me if a lot of it hit near the mark.



There is no perfect solution - piracy is almost undoubtedly higher on the PC, but the target market is larger, scope for more penetration, scope for an epic hit to blow console income right out of the park. Of course larger player based doesn't necessarily equate to larger potential market base as different people have different tastes.


@Kalniel - It comes back to why the revenues are not very good. Why is that? The sales charts show that the market is profitable and is sellable to. So what's wrong? Is it the proliferation of consoles in homes creating an easier standard to code to? Maybe. Is it the higher likelihood of poor DLC selling on a console? Maybe. Is it piracy? Maybe. Is it piss-poor ports (in either direction)? Maybe. Is it because, actually the game is medicore at best but <platform A> has no alternates whereas <platform b> has a lot of better alternates? Maybe. More like its all of the above and more.


I'd bet a lot of money that its a combination of factors, I just feel "its the damned piracy" is an easy excuse to trot out and doesn't need much evidence based support in a release/comment. There are probably other much more significant issues affecting this that should be addressed for the good of everyone. Hiding behind piracy as an excuse/reason which, if we're being honest, isn't uncommon and is the equivalent of sticking ones head in the sand and ignoring changing trends. Other industries which I wont name (for fear inciting an epic derail/flame war) are experiencing this very thing and its working out badly for everyone. I'd rather not see that in one of my favourite industries.



Its not an easy thing to objectively analyse (mainly from a lack of data) and you might've caught me at the wrong time after my whole dead space debacle (I'm not usually this grumpy about it) but I've tried not to make too many emotionally based replies but objective ones attempting to suggest that actually, there's probably a shedload of factors involved here and that the impact of piracy is probably overstated in terms of "failures" of titles.


Overall I just think it's a shame that it appears that a number of developers are abandoning/resigning to second class a platform prematurely. There's so much potential in the PC for both gamers and retailers and the painful part is - when its done badly it hurts everyone, when its done well, everybody wins. Seeing people walk away from that potential is a real shame.

Hopefully that's not closed sounding too cynical

[Ultima2876]

As an indie developer I have considered the impact of piracy on game sales, and it has been a factor in not wanting to develop for mainstream PC release. A lot of indie developers appreciate using platforms like Xbox Live Indie Games or Live Arcade, PS Minis and such because they offer a layer of security that releasing on the PC doesn't. Of course, the Flash games industry turns that on its head - people stealing your game and putting it on their site is actually a GOOD thing. Exposure is everything for flash games, and when your income is ad based or through sponsorships with performance bonuses based on number of plays, you want people to be taking your games as much as possible.

I wonder if there would be way for a model like that to work in the PC downloadable or even mainstream games market? Then again, I suppose your'd get 'cracked' versions with ads removed...

I think a major reason for piracy is the prices of games. I think £24.99 is a very fair price for a new game. However, once you start reaching £40, £50 and sometimes higher prices things get to the point where people start to think "one week's worth of food or a new game? Maybe I should just download it...". Especially those on a lower income or students. I wonder if a price point of £24.99 (or maybe £17.99/19.99 for downloadable games) would do a lot to combat piracy on commercial releases - I believe it'd at least help in dealing with some 20% of pirates who only do it because they can't afford to drop £40 on a new game.

[Georgy291]

I think a major reason for piracy is the prices of games. I think £24.99 is a very fair price for a new game. However, once you start reaching £40, £50 and sometimes higher prices things get to the point where people start to think "one week's worth of food or a new game? Maybe I should just download it...". Especially those on a lower income or students. I wonder if a price point of £24.99 (or maybe £17.99/19.99 for downloadable games) would do a lot to combat piracy on commercial releases - I believe it'd at least help in dealing with some 20% of pirates who only do it because they can't afford to drop £40 on a new game.

wow i thought id never see the day, the first games developer with actual consideration.

[TheAnimus]

the problem is when people talk about price point, it anoys me the lack of obvious understanding of the economics.

£50 vs £24.99 lets say.

You need to know the cost of each transaction, this could depend on store or online, so lets say its nice and low at £2 for each.
that means that you would need to get over double the sales figures for the price drop to £25, otherwise the firm would be better off with the larger number of pirates.

Would that really happen?

Some people are just cheap barstards. It really is that simple, no one is forcing you to "need" to play that game, just because its mediocre doesn't mean you shouldn't pay to play it. If its really so mediocre why play it in the first place. I've known girls who have been not as elegant, graceful or charming as others, does that mean that just because I've sunk lower than my high marks I should treat them like dirt. If you've got a dev team of 5 people, and one is clearly a better dev you shouldn't pay any of the others?

I always find that argument particularly bogus.

The only one I can begin to understand is some kinds of software. I know I have to budget a fair few grand every so often to keep up to date with expensive software, its a pain but the return I get on a say $600 for Expression studio is easily earnt in a day. Now if someone was just a hobbiest or similar were they are not really using the software for the intended purpose..... All too often firms fail to provide a hobbiest license.

An example of this is Photoshop, why not allow home users to have a full version, Microsoft manage this with Office for non-commercial use.

The amount of people I know how pirate photoshop is insane, its largely in their minds that they need it rather than a cheaper alternative, but why Adobe don't try and cater to them I really don't know.

[j.o.s.h.1408]

even at work people pirate photoshop.

[TheAnimus]

your work is a joke then!

[MadduckUK]

mendozaaaaas job is a joke, but not because of that.

[j.o.s.h.1408]

yup it is a bloody joke. glad im out of that ****hole!

[Splash]

The amount of people I know how pirate photoshop is insane, its largely in their minds that they need it rather than a cheaper alternative, but why Adobe don't try and cater to them I really don't know.

You mean like this? PC World (that arbiter of value...) sells PSE for £70, a tenner less than Office H&SE.

As for companies pirating software: they have to be stupid, frankly. Aren't you a dev, Josh? People developing software with unlicensed software, who then expect people to pay for their software? Personally, I'd be looking to take a trip to the BSA if I were you. I'd have no qualms whatsoever reporting an employer who encourages piracy - it's not the kind of place I'd be happy to work.

[j.o.s.h.1408]

Yea i am a dev and it is indeed really shocking that the place i use to work could not even afford to buy us photoshop licence. we even use a pirated copy of microsoft visio!

tbh im not even sure if we use a legit copy of windows 7!!

[TheAnimus]

Splash photoshop elements is a good example, its a really different product yes, but it lacks a lot of features people might want more. At the end of the day it might be a simpler product for mom n pa users, but its not what they are wanting.

With MS office for instance, they do give you the same program, but change the title bar.

[kalniel]

Splash photoshop elements is a good example, its a really different product yes, but it lacks a lot of features people might want more. At the end of the day it might be a simpler product for mom n pa users, but its not what they are wanting.

If they're power users then there's GIMP or several other free powerful image editors.

[Splash]

Splash photoshop elements is a good example, its a really different product yes, but it lacks a lot of features people might want more. At the end of the day it might be a simpler product for mom n pa users, but its not what they are wanting.

With MS office for instance, they do give you the same program, but change the title bar.

Not as far as I can see - the H&SE is missing Outlook for a start. Sure, most home users don't need that but if you can show me a feature that your average "can't afford to spend more" user needs that's in Photoshop but not PSE I'll eat my hat. And it's not very tasty, I tried it before.

In all honesty the vats majority of people that I've known who use pirated Photoshop could probably get everything they need from Paint.NET, GIMP and Photoshop just add masses of complexity for people who just need to remove redeye and do a little clipping.

[Ultima2876]

£50 vs £24.99 lets say.

You need to know the cost of each transaction, this could depend on store or online, so lets say its nice and low at £2 for each.
that means that you would need to get over double the sales figures for the price drop to £25, otherwise the firm would be better off with the larger number of pirates.

Would that really happen?

If they didn't make it so ridiculous in the first place they wouldn't need double the sales to keep up. How come DS games can sell for £29.99 rrp but PS3/Xbox games need to be £49.99? And don't say it's because they cost less to develop, because the publishers are the ones that benefit the most from that price increase. The developers will be on a salary unrelated to game sales; the only thing that'd really effect them in terms of sales is if the game is a complete flop and doesn't sell at all, in which case they'll likely lose their job.

I never said that worse games should cost less. I just said dropping 50 quid, or two weeks worth of decent food for a single person, for a game is bad. Especially when you can get a movie that likely cost a LOT more to produce for, oh, 1/5 of the price.

I guess the movie industry is also saturated with piracy though, so maybe reducing the price wouldn't help combat piracy at all - maybe it'd just make those who actually do buy the games not feel as much like they've been completely ripped off

[TheAnimus]

If they're power users then there's GIMP or several other free powerful image editors.

Yes but many people don't like gimp, that would be akin to saying no one would buy H&SE when there is open office. (OK, bad example Open Office is ****)

Not as far as I can see - the H&SE is missing Outlook for a start. Sure, most home users don't need that but if you can show me a feature that your average "can't afford to spend more" user needs that's in Photoshop but not PSE I'll eat my hat. And it's not very tasty, I tried it before.

True but my point is word, excel. They are 100% as powerful.

I bought myself a copy of lightroom, I'm not really good enough to need it, I don't make money off it, its just a hobby, but its by far and a way the nicest I've found so far I find it relaxing and well I can afford it.

[Splash]

True but my point is word, excel. They are 100% as powerful.

I bought myself a copy of lightroom, I'm not really good enough to need it, I don't make money off it, its just a hobby, but its by far and a way the nicest I've found so far I find it relaxing and well I can afford it.

Which aspects of full fat Photoshop that these people would use are missing from Elements? My guess is none, much like the people who claim that Windows is too expensive and justify piracy that way: they *insist* that they *need* Ultimate when the top end version gives them nothing that they use above what Home Premium would.