Unless they changed it in the last 10 years, the only vehicle which has the "right" to go through a red light is a post office vehicle carrying a declaration of war. So no, the cops cant force you through one as they dont have the right either.
However, common sense should prevail, glad for the OP that it worked out ok.
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Originally Posted by this_is_gav
Oh don't get me wrong, I think the moving into the bus lane bit to make way for an ambulance is justifiable but the hanging on in there later? I think it's pretty easy to read between the lines about what happened.
I'm no angel btw, I speed every day (just like everyone else) which can be a danger to others. I also ride through red lights and ride on the pavement on my push bike. But I don't drink and drive and seldom abuse my reindeers. Not in public anyway; it wouldn't look good on CCTV.
That is true, but as you said earlier in the post, the law is a blunt tool, which is why there is a judicial system that allows the law to be applied appropriately in the light of the fact and mitigating circumstances.
And the highway code is not in itself law, although the provisions may be used in court in motoring matters.
And it is worth noting in this case that there was no question of a fine, as a criminal offence had not been committed. (However if the contravention had been reported by a police officer, then that would be a criminal prosecution) But in this case where the council was issuing a penalty notice for a contravention, it was a civil matter for which a penalty was imposed, but would not have resulted in either points on the driver's license, or a criminal record, which would be the case in (say) crossing a red light, or exceeding a statutory speed limit. (This is my understanding/opinion from some research - I am not a lawyer!)
I would certainly call getting a just result, taking into account all the circumstances in a particular case, a success!Well, if you call breaking the law and getting away with it a 'success', then yes.
Unless you consider that this was not a just result?
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Actually they do, although the legislation is from within the last 10 years, I think it applied before that though. Specifically: The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002
The gist is that emergency vehicle drivers can treat a red light like a give way sign, and drive through it.when a vehicle is being used for fire brigade, ambulance, bomb or explosive disposal, national blood service or police purposes and the observance of the prohibition conveyed by the red signal in accordance with sub-paragraph (a) would be likely to hinder the use of that vehicle for the purpose for which it is being used, then sub-paragraph (a) shall not apply to the vehicle, and the red signal shall convey the prohibition that that vehicle shall not proceed beyond the stop line in a manner or at a time likely to endanger any person or to cause the driver of any vehicle proceeding in accordance with the indications of light signals operating in association with the signals displaying the red signal to change its speed or course in order to avoid an accident;
Can't say, not sure all the facts are available. Like I said, the moving into the bus lane to get out of the way of an ambulance bit seems justified; scooting along in the bus lane later might not have been but there you go, it's no biggie and I suppose we all take advantage when we can.
Gah I thought the fact I was rebuked for briefly travelling in the bus lane was petty.
I only did it so I could build up a decent amount of speed so I could get into back in the middle lane faster and safely given there was incoming traffic from behind.
me being me i would have gone back at the person who let you off and reminded him that next time when you don't move out the way it could be one of his loved ones who doesn't make it thanks to ***** like him giving out arsey responces to people trying to do the right thing.
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Fair enough. That sounds plausible and you have been given the benefit of the doubt. No need now to pop down to the Council Offices and debowel an official a la GoNz0
Seems I'm a little late to this thread (too much work recently getting in the way of my forum time) and I'm very glad to see that common sense prevailed, even if the letter from the council employee quashing the fine leaves a little bit of a bitter taste in the mouth
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Quite. The second one is particularly egregious; he was at most 2m over the line- which I doubt is enough to set off the camera anyway. It was almost certainly set off by the police vehicle going through the lights. Still, it was a police van so it's entirely possible that the crew were on a kebab mission or were in danger of finishing late. Call me cynical if you like, but there's a police vehicle depot literally right on the other side of the main road which adjoins my road, and more than once I've seen them come tooling down with full blues and twos going, only to switch them off as they turn in. And there are no custody facilities there that I know about
There was another well reported case a few years ago where a driver waiting at a red light in the outside lane (of two) pulled over in front of the car waiting on the nearside to let an ambulance through. He didn't endanger anyone but did set the camera off (or again, maybe the ambulance did). He took it to court, and with a spectacular failure of common sense the judge upheld the fine and points on the basis that the law and/or Highway Code does not allow you to break the law merely to facilitate the passage of an emergency vehicle.
Now despite the impression some of you may have gained from my gung-ho drunken postings on this forum, I am not IRL a particularly angry or vindictive person. But I have fervently wished ever since for that judge to suffer a twisted testicle, or some other incredibly painful but non-life-threatening ailment, only to have his trip to hospital delayed by at least 10 minutes by cars following his legal judgement and not moving out of the way at every red light between his house and the hospital.
And, FWIW, I've performed that exact manouvre to let an ambulance through before, thankfully without any legal sanction, and TBH I would do so again. Three points and 60 quid vs someone's life? I'd enjoy making that point in court, if it came to that.
Glad you got there before me jackvdbuk, the oddly named PePiPoo forums must be everyone's first call in this sort of case.
Albeit that in this far more deserving case you've already been pwnt, I'll add that I won a parking appeal about 2 years ago. There's a little council car park next to my local Tescos; I pulled in at 6.10pm to get a bottle of milk and some bread; knowing that the car park charging hours ended at 6.30pm I figured I'd chance it since there were 20 minutes to go, and little chance of parking attendants being around after 6 on a Saturday. I got back to the car at 6.28pm to find a Council Enforcement Officer looking at my car and taking notes. I jumped in and drove off, without him saying anything.When did we last hear on this forum of a successful champion of the little people who was goaded to 'fight it all the way'?
So far, so bang to rights. I now know from subsequent research that jumping in and driving off before a ticket can be issued is no longer a legal defense; and TBH I'm not a bit surprised that a 5'6 African immigrant didn't fancy a confrontation with a 5'11 SE London white skinhead like myself (though I didn't even make eye contact let alone menace him- as I say IRL I'm a calm and reasonable bloke). All he had to do was take the ticket back to his office and get it posted to me.
But he didn't do that- he amended the notes he'd been taking to show 'HTD' which means 'Handed To Driver', then presumably put the ticket in the nearest bin.
After 5 1/2 months my mum (whose car I'd been driving) received a Notice To Owner for an unpaid Penalty Notice Charge demanding 80 quid, because the original £40 PCN hadn't been paid. The legal limit for an NTO is 6 months- and even then, there apparently should be reasonable circumstances why it has taken so long. I immediately appealed on the entirely true basis that neither my mum nor I had ever received the PCN. The council rejected the appeal, appending a photocopy of the CEO's very clearly scribbled out notes as proof.
So we took it to the arbitration body, PATAS I think they're called. My mum had to go with me since it was her car. She said that I was driving and so I was called in after 2 minutes. Everything I have thus far stated in this thread is entirely true, and so consequently I had a long, angry and heartfelt rant about the council's iniquities ready to give the adjudicator.
I sat there for about 5 minutes while he reviewed all the documents pertinent to the case- the supposed PCN, the NTO, the CEO's clearly amended notes, and my appeal letter. Then he turned to me and said something along the lines of* "I'd like you to understand that these are legal proceedings and if you were to say anything other than the truth...."...at which point, eager to start my well prepared argument, I cut him off with an impatient "Yes, yes," or similar.
He pointedly looked me straight in the eye*: "I'll say again- you do realise that these are legal proceedings and that if you were to say anything other than the truth it could have legal repercusions far more serious than the original fine?" This time, I let him finish, confidently holding his gaze throughout, and still looking him straight in the eye said "I do understand that yes".
"In that case I'm allowing the appeal" he said.
"Thank you!" I said, being both very pleased, and suddenly deflated at the realisation that the long and cogent diatribe at the council that I'd been preparing for several weeks would not be required.
We were ushered out into the waiting area, where 5 minutes later we were issued with a printed judgement which read* "The appelant does not deny that the parking infraction took place, but I can see no good evidence that the PCN was properly issued". A judgement which was 100% true, but not what we discussed.
I quite honestly was bang to rights, and if they'd just posted the ticket to me/my mum I would have cursed and paid the 40 quid- but I was damned if I was going to pay double that for the CEO's lies and the council's incompetence.
* these quotes are from memory and obviously not 100% accurate. But they're a true representation of the legal meaning.
Last edited by Rave; 26-09-2011 at 06:42 AM.
What a childish thing to say and somewhat at odds with your known ability to express yourself.
Not only that, it is inaccurate.
I thought you did? I swear you described our previous government as a successWell, if you call breaking the law and getting away with it a 'success', then yes
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All of the posts and all of the discussion and you choose my one-liner? I'm flatteredI thought you did? I swear you described our previous government as a success
I'm just jealous!All of the posts and all of the discussion and you choose my one-liner? I'm flattered
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Agreed .... though as e_LAN-go says later, it's a judgement thing whether it's "hanging on" or just pulling back out safely.
Obviously, changing lanes safely is often a result of roughly matching speed, and waiting for a gap or someone to let you out. Changing lanes in any form of reasonably heavy traffic always involves an element of risk, and the priority ought to be doing it safely, not doing it ASAP to avoid having your judgement second-guessed by either a camera, or someone that wasn't there.
I'd also just say I'm sorry but I do not have Rave's sense of social responsibility. If the law is going to be an ass and penalise someone for moving into a bus lane or crossing a red light to avoid an ambulance, I won't do either. If an ambulance or police car has to wait as a result, so be it. If the law wants to behave like a world-class anus, I'm quite capable and willing to do my little bit to emulate it.
Tit for tat. I have no wish to either pay the fine, or to have the stress and hassle of going to court to argue it out .... and quite possibly losing. If those with the power want to clarify the law and make this a valid exception for all of us, then great. But until they do, no bus lanes or red-light-crossing for me.
Oh, give over you old curmudgeon. Given that 5 posts separated your (rhetorical?) question and the OP's report that he had indeed 'stuck it to the man', I feel that a friendly "pwnt" was indeed in order. Perhaps the addition of aWhat a childish thing to say and somewhat at odds with your known ability to express yourself.
Not only that, it is inaccurate.
If I'd wanted to be childish, I'd have said "ahhhhhh- how'd ya feel?", possibly accompanied by shaking my hand in such a way as to strike my index finger against my thumb and middle finger repeatedly
Aye, ok. You're a better man than l33tisms portray.Oh, give over you old curmudgeon. Given that 5 posts separated your (rhetorical?) question and the OP's report that he had indeed 'stuck it to the man', I feel that a friendly "pwnt" was indeed in order. Perhaps the addition of a
If I'd wanted to be childish, I'd have said "ahhhhhh- how'd ya feel?", possibly accompanied by shaking my hand in such a way as to strike my index finger against my thumb and middle finger repeatedly
Rave (28-09-2011)
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