1600 W maximum on vacuum cleaners from from Sept!

[DanceswithUnix]

So how about the alternative?: Whack bigger taxes on electricity usage. Then you have the choice to run a lower power devise for longer, or a higher powered one for shorter, or an efficient one, or an inefficient one if you so wish - you'll just be subsidising the tax burden on those who chose to be more efficient.

That's never enough for politicians though is it.

My last car was a big V6. People occasionally commented about paying higher taxes, and looked baffled when you point out that if it really does consume more fuel then the massive tax on petrol means I am already paying higher taxes. Increasing the VED was punishing me for no good reason. I now have a diesel. The difference? I don't like driving as much, fuel bill is slightly lower (25mpg vs 35mpg town driving), I save about £100 on VED per year. Given that after a year I still don't like diesels I would like to trade the car in for another V6, but that would be a post 2006 car now and the VED on those is crippling thanks to it being based on something other than my normal commute.

For those wondering, my commute is only a couple of miles of stop-start across town. If the weather is good, I cycle it. I fill the tank of the car every month or so, the diesel saves me about £15 on that refill. So would I pay £150 per year extra in fuel to enjoy driving and not be sputtering diesel fumes everywhere? Yep. Do I want to pay about another £300 in VED by switching back to petrol? No, so I guess I will stick to stinking the place up and being angry.

I think enough people are struggling to pay their electricity and gas bills as it is, I don't see that they can raise it. They could put a "green tax" on purchasing what they think are inefficient items, but then the really inefficient stuff isn't exactly mass market. I knew someone who had a Musical Fidelity class-A amplifier. The thing cost thousands, chucked out a few hundred watts all day every day as it wasn't supposed to be turned off to keep the amplifier in perfect setup. How much tax would it take to stop someone buying something like that?

[kalniel]

Well a raise in consumption tax should be balanced by a drop in tax somewhere else so that there is a net benefit to using less and net cost to using more (if your intention is to drive usage down).

In the petrol threads I'm in agreement with you and have argued for an increase in fuel duty and abolition of VED. But I have come around to the idea of using something to incentivise switching cars to ones that are better for the environment in ways other than measured at the pump - I hadn't realised before, but some ways of increasing economy have had consequences in terms of increasing health affecting pollutants, so it is a bit more nuanced than just increasing fuel duty, but I still largely think we should go via that rather than VED for the most part.

For me it's fairly well balanced on my 13k miles a year - VED is around £130 a year, while the duty portion of my fuel usage is around £620 a year (not including VAT). Increasing duty by 5% (2-3p a litre) would get them their VED back while discounting the cost of cars for people who do fewer miles.

[peterb]

The problem with taxation is that it can be a very blunt tool. Raising tax on energy is particularly bad and any increase in VAT on gas and electricity prices above the 5% rate - which was directed by the EU IIRC - has been vigorously resisted by successive Governments. These are regarded as essential commodities, and there has been considerable disquiet about energy prices anyway. Adding tax would be politically unacceptable.

The alternative would be to have multiple VAT rates on the goods themselves. There are disadvantages to that - it would increase bureaucracy - we have had multiple tier VAT rates in the past (we still do - 5% on energy, 20% on most other goods, zero rate on others and finally tax exempt goods) so adding yet another rate ads to the administration costs of companies - which would get passed on.

There is also the question of measuring efficiency (or even defining it in some cases)

I mentioned a definition earlier for kettles - the ratio of theoretical amount of energy required to raise the temperature of a given mass of water by a set amount and the actual amount of energy consumed by a device to raise the same mass of water by the same amount. That is easy to determine. But how do you measure the efficiency of a vacuum cleaner? You could devise a standard test - the quantity of a dust (of a given standard composition) from a defined standard carpet in a given time might be one method of measurement - once a standard carpet and standard type of 'dust' has been defined. but as seen in car emission standards, laboratory tests do not always translate into real world performance.

Give consumers the choice (and education to make informed decisions) and those that want to use a higher powered device (for maybe a shorter time) can do so - those that want to use a lower powered device can do so.

There then remains the question of encouraging manufacturers to produce lower powered/more efficient devices. That could be done by incentives - tax breaks for example, or again through consumer education, consumer demand.

[DanceswithUnix]

You could devise a standard test - the quantity of a dust (of a given standard composition) from a defined standard carpet in a given time might be one method of measurement - once a standard carpet and standard type of 'dust' has been defined. but as seen in car emission standards, laboratory tests do not always translate into real world performance.

That would only work if we all buy standard carpets, else we would still be completely in the dark. So you need at least a standard hard flooring, standard short pile, standard deep pile carpets. Then you need standard dust, a standard cat to drop standard fur. Maybe some standard long hairs to get caught up in the brushses and see how they cope.

Or the bureaucrats could just leave us alone.

OTOH, I could supply the standard house. They could come around once a week at a time of my choosing and vacuum my house with the latest cleaner. My wife could check the state of the various carpets and floorings and give a rating out of 10. We would have to be paid for our services of making the floors dirty again ofc

[ik9000]

OTOH, I could supply the standard house. They could come around once a week at a time of my choosing and vacuum my house with the latest cleaner. My wife could check the state of the various carpets and floorings and give a rating out of 10. We would have to be paid for our services of making the floors dirty again ofc

Great idea! And obviously we would need a sample range of properties to ensure consistency and permit a proper statistical conclusion to be drawn. We too would contribute. Sounds like a good little Hexus earner. We could even play them at their own game and help draft BS EN 5318008 - Suck and blow regulations. With all the various parts required: domestic performance, non domestic performance, specification of a standard property, secondary usage as a comfort appliance*, specific regulations for anyone involved in making European policy (10W max for them), we could have a good little earner for at least a year. Let's lobby the EMPs to let us form a steering committee, and establish a focus group asap!

Thinking about it, could this be what it's all about? Maybe some Euro MP got caught at A&E in an embarrassing situation with a hoover pipe and blamed it on the hoover being too powerful to get off after he "fell on it"*... Now he wants the power downgraded on all the others to prevent such a "problem" (aka injurious embarrassment) for someone else....

I bet he's the same person asking for those glass ketchup bottles to be replaced with the wider oval plastic ones because they're harder to get stuck.... *

*my friend is an A&E doctor. This stuff happens!

[wasabi]

I knew someone who had a Musical Fidelity class-A amplifier. The thing cost thousands, chucked out a few hundred watts all day every day as it wasn't supposed to be turned off to keep the amplifier in perfect setup. How much tax would it take to stop someone buying something like that?

There is also the weird comspicuos consumerism/wealth offset. The number of Chelsea tractors / 4x4s I see on the roads nowadays compared to 20 years ago is staggering. Sudden increase in the number of horse owners? Doubt it - great big thirsty status symbol IMO.

[ik9000]

the beeb has just summarised our thread!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-maga...nitor-29020988

[peterb]

Obviously they are lurkers!

[Top_gun]

But that is currently your choice, just as it was with vacuum cleaners. The EU directives are restricting your freedom to choose.

It seems, it's possible to get amps with great sound quality while maintaining energy efficiency. I've always remembered the great sound quality from the Krell KAV-300i amp when I auditioned one, along with a Gyrodek + SME V arm and Sonus Faber Concerto speakers, during the late 90s. Nothing below their price point matched them in terms of sound quality and I listened to quite a few amps like Sugdens, Naim, Musical Fidelity, Anthem, Croft, etc. Now Krell has launched a range of energy efficient amps including a Class A model which promises more low level detail this year.

As for choice, I believe the EU Directive is about increasing my choice of reliable energy efficient products for me as a consumer.

[peterb]

As for choice, I believe the EU Directive is about increasing my choice of reliable energy efficient products for me as a consumer.

Well, you would be right if it could be demonstrated that lower power motors were demonstrably more energy efficient. They may use less power, but that isn't the same as using less energy (as energy=power*time)

But I guess it depends or your definition of efficiency.

[Top_gun]

But I guess it depends or your definition of efficiency.

Not really, what really matter is the final effect on my electricity bill. My track record is pretty good as I've reduced my annual bill from £320 to just £150 by taking appliances off standby and replacing least energy efficient appliances with better ones.

The BBC article has done a good job in summing up the case for the EU directive as follows:

• No clear relationship between motor size and overall energy consumption

• More efficient motors and better product design can be more important than power

• Many products, such as hairdryers, use far more energy than is needed to do the job

[kalniel]

The BBC article has done a good job in summing up the case for the EU directive as follows:

• No clear relationship between motor size and overall energy consumption

• More efficient motors and better product design can be more important than power

• Many products, such as hairdryers, use far more energy than is needed to do the job

Indeed those points are correct, but they bear no relation to why a cap is better than say energy ratings or some other more progressive scheme. As mentioned earlier, the cap is likely to be for less obviously 'good' reasons, such as encouraging trade/manufacture for a particular member state.

[peterb]

Not really, what really matter is the final effect on my electricity bill. My track record is pretty good as I've reduced my annual bill from £320 to just £150 by taking appliances off standby and replacing least energy efficient appliances with better ones.

Exactly - it is the effect on your electricity bill - and that is what will drive consumers to low energy appliances - provided they do the job.

It doesn't need to nanny EU to tell me what to do. and I would like the freedom to choose a vacuum cleaner of my choice, do do the job I want to do as quickly as possible (to reduce my energy consumption - even if that means a more powerful model, that I'll use for a shorter period of time.

However, I'd be more inclined to take note of the EU's energy directives if it put its own house in order - for example when it stops the hugely wasteful and disruptive transfer of the European Parliament from Brussels to Strasburg and back every six months - with two buildings to maintain.

A case of "do as I say, not as I do".

As for the BBC article - Kalniel has summed it perfectly.

[ik9000]

Exactly - it is the effect on your electricity bill - and that is what will drive consumers to low energy appliances - provided they do the job.

It doesn't need to nanny EU to tell me what to do. and I would like the freedom to choose a vacuum cleaner of my choice, do do the job I want to do as quickly as possible (to reduce my energy consumption - even if that means a more powerful model, that I'll use for a shorter period of time.

However, I'd be more inclined to take note of the EU's energy directives if it put its own house in order - for example when it stops the hugely wasteful and disruptive transfer of the European Parliament from Brussels to Strasburg and back every six months - with two buildings to maintain.

A case of "do as I say, not as I do".

and i think I remember hearing that the EU MEPs get a set (generous) expenses rate which they receive whether they actually spend it or not. Nice little earner! I should stand as an MEP...

[Saracen]

Exactly - it is the effect on your electricity bill - and that is what will drive consumers to low energy appliances - provided they do the job.

It doesn't need to nanny EU to tell me what to do. and I would like the freedom to choose a vacuum cleaner of my choice, do do the job I want to do as quickly as possible (to reduce my energy consumption - even if that means a more powerful model, that I'll use for a shorter period of time.

However, I'd be more inclined to take note of the EU's energy directives if it put its own house in order - for example when it stops the hugely wasteful and disruptive transfer of the European Parliament from Brussels to Strasburg and back every six months - with two buildings to maintain.

A case of "do as I say, not as I do".

As for the BBC article - Kalniel has summed it perfectly.

I entirely agree with a lot of that sentiment, if not all of it. I too don't need nanny EU telling me what vacuum cleaner to buy. Nor, as regulars will be aware, am I an EU fan. At best, it has a LOT of faults.

BUT .... what I really care about on the vacuum issue is not whether the Regs originate in the EU or not, or Westmihster or not, but the effect they have, in the end.

Sometimes, it takes a regulation like this to force manufacturers to put the effort, and funding, into design efficiency, rather than marketing .... erm .... 'shoemakers' where the core marketing USP is motor power, as determined by wattage. It can be as deceitful as measuring printer quality simply by looking at DPI, or at a digicam's image qyality by lookingcat sensor resolution alone. For both printers and cameras it's much more complex, nuanced even, than that and the pixel numbers game is really marketing department driven. As, I suspect, is vacuum cleaner motor power ratings.

So, for me (and pretty much all of us, I guess) what really matters is whether post-Reg sub-1600w cleaners do as good a job as the more muscle-bound pre-Reg energy guzzlers,

Putting that another way, if (stress if) the result is cleaners that are as effective as cleaners, and energy efficient, then this is a good thing, IMHO. But that "if" is critical. I would, personally, MUCH rather have an energy guzzling 2500w or 3000w model that works really well, than a 1600w model than leaves me pushing an asthmatic half-assed waste of space around having to go over everything twice or three times.


My suspicion is that a perfectly good job can be done with 1600w, or even less, provided the design is right. This will force manufacturers to compete on design efficiency rather than just slapping a bigger motor into a 50-year old design and hoping for the best.

So, hopefully, this will result in design effort, mefficient cleaners ans we end up with ckean floors, AND both saved money and electricity.

What I will be trying to avoid, though, is buying a new cleaner for a couple of years. A bit like energy-efficient light bulbs, using regulation to force manufacturer's to change product design worked (mostly) but it took a good couple of years, or more, for designs to 'optimise'.


Oh, and in the interests of openness, we don't use our old (powerful) upright very often, these days. Mostly, we use a neat, light, battery-powered Dyson. We bought it, and they're not cheap, for a couple if specific reasons, and were delighted with how it coped. But we also found it's pretty effective as a main cleaner substitute too, and we used that about 90% of the time. Maybe 95%. The only downside is you get about 20 mins use per charge. But it's not as bad as it sounds, because you hold a button in to powervit, so it only drinks battery while you're cleaning. If you pause, to move something, it stops. If you change tooks, it stops. If you move it from room to room, it stops. The tendency with the old one was to leaving it running while moving to the next room, or lifting something out of the way. So that 20 mins actually gets you further than you think. And, instead of doing the whole house in one go, we do a bit one day, a bit the next, and the last bit later in the week. Particukarly as you get older, and/or have mobility issues, it's FAR easier to use that lightweight machine which, by the way, is well within power limits AND, in my opinion, still cleans extremely well.

Ultimately, we'll need to wait probably a couple of years, or more, until the .... ummm .... dust settles .... on these Regs before we'll find out if they worked in our best interests or not, or whether they're just more EU pettyfogging bureaucracy. I suspect they'll turn out to be a good thing, and in five years, we'll all wonder why we were concerned. I hope.

[DanceswithUnix]

Ultimately, we'll need to wait probably a couple of years, or more, until the .... ummm .... dust settles .... on these Regs before we'll find out if they worked in our best interests or not, or whether they're just more EU pettyfogging bureaucracy. I suspect they'll turn out to be a good thing, and in five years, we'll all wonder why we were concerned. I hope.

In 2017 the power limit drops to 900W, so we need to wait until about 2020 to know if this worked.