Election Results as they happen...

[Corky34]

I'm sure you'll be blaming the media next, then Russia....

Speaking of Russia, any news when that report is going to be released now the election is out of the way, or do people expect it will quietly vanish without trace?

[[GSV]Trig]

I dont expect it'll get much air time when it is released..

[Saracen999]

The same is true of this election I feel, as well as a lot of people voting for Boris many of them were voting against Corbyn. I can't take the credit for this line but it may be the first time a party has lost an election by having too much Momentum rather than not enough.

We can only hope the next Labour leader is closer to Blair than Corbyn or Foot in their policies then Labour will once again provide a credible alternative. Governments are most effective with a strong opposition holding them to account, something that we'll need over the next 5 years.

With the caveat that my reservations about relying too heavily on polls, at least other than through a sceptical lens, I saw a BBC report that when drilling down into the exit poll figures about why voters didn't vote Labour, 43% said Corbyn, and 17% said Labour Brexit policy.

What I didn't see mentioned, one way or the other, whether that was drawn from all voters (including traditional Tory voters, etc) or just from those that voted Labour previously (i.e. last time). Also, it didn't distinguish between Corbyn personally, or the Corbyn agenda. Anecdotally, quite a few members of the public interviewed said they just didn't see JC as leadership material. If so, that should help reassure to Corbyn camp because it suggests the same agenda, with a more credible leader might go down better. But if it was the Corbynite agenda, the policy program, then you may be right that a more traditional, centrist leader and policy program may be an effective comeback platform.

I've no research-based opinion on which, though I do have a gut-feel one based on very limited conversations with long-term Labour voters of my acquaintance, and that suggests it was both. They all said they won't vote hard-left but would likely return to a centre-left Labour. But clearly, "my acquaintance" is hardly a neutral, random sample selection. Hence, "gut feel".

Either way, Boris is showing significant early signs of being aware those votes are only on-loan so if his IQ is about that of a carrot, he'll take real measures to cement that loan nto the future.

My advice, not that they'll care, is for the Labour leadership team to do some serious delving into why they did so badly. Was it Corbyn, was it Brexit, was it turnout, etc, and to do so honestly (if privately) rather than with preconceptions. But if it does, worst-case, turn out to be the hard left agenda, are they prepared to accept they're flogging a dead horse. If not, this could be the start of a very long period in opposition. As several (Labour) grandees have pointed out, you have to be in power to effect real change, not in opposition.

[outwar6010]

With the caveat that my reservations about relying too heavily on polls, at least other than through a sceptical lens, I saw a BBC report that when drilling down into the exit poll figures about why voters didn't vote Labour, 43% said Corbyn, and 17% said Labour Brexit policy.

What I didn't see mentioned, one way or the other, whether that was drawn from all voters (including traditional Tory voters, etc) or just from those that voted Labour previously (i.e. last time). Also, it didn't distinguish between Corbyn personally, or the Corbyn agenda. Anecdotally, quite a few members of the public interviewed said they just didn't see JC as leadership material. If so, that should help reassure to Corbyn camp because it suggests the same agenda, with a more credible leader might go down better. But if it was the Corbynite agenda, the policy program, then you may be right that a more traditional, centrist leader and policy program may be an effective comeback platform.

I've no research-based opinion on which, though I do have a gut-feel one based on very limited conversations with long-term Labour voters of my acquaintance, and that suggests it was both. They all said they won't vote hard-left but would likely return to a centre-left Labour. But clearly, "my acquaintance" is hardly a neutral, random sample selection. Hence, "gut feel".

Either way, Boris is showing significant early signs of being aware those votes are only on-loan so if his IQ is about that of a carrot, he'll take real measures to cement that loan nto the future.

My advice, not that they'll care, is for the Labour leadership team to do some serious delving into why they did so badly. Was it Corbyn, was it Brexit, was it turnout, etc, and to do so honestly (if privately) rather than with preconceptions. But if it does, worst-case, turn out to be the hard left agenda, are they prepared to accept they're flogging a dead horse. If not, this could be the start of a very long period in opposition. As several (Labour) grandees have pointed out, you have to be in power to effect real change, not in opposition.

Milliband was attacked over the way he ate a sandwich so anyone saying another leader would come down better is full of it. The press for years has been overtly bias towards the conservatives. Over the last little while the bbc has doctored footage on two accounts to make the nonce boris look better. On remembrance day he put a wreath upside down and they decided to use old footage of him getting it right(corbyn would have been attacked relentlessly over it) and they removed audience laughter when he was asked about trust. There have been sooo many attacks on corbyn it's absurd he was called an anti semite for daring to support palestinian rights and right now bernie sanders is starting to get similar slander.
Boris is a disgusting bigot and racist yet he gets off scot free for no matter how many times he says something absurdly offensive. The media doesn't seem to care about islamophobia or how much the tories engage in it. All we got were attacks on corbyn and calls for him to apologise for it, when nobody can find him saying anything anti semitic; unlike boris where he openly publishes racist things. Honestly people who voted tory should be absolutely ashamed of themselves.

The hard left stuff is also full of it. A lot of what corbyn and the hard left wanted to do made sense and was done by other more successful countries already.

Also did you see how the centrist party lib dems did? they got absolutely massacred.

[kalniel]

Also did you see how the centrist party lib dems did? they got absolutely massacred.

They net lost one seat and increased their share of the vote from 7.4% to 11.5%. Is that what you mean by 'absolutely massacred'?

[Spud1]

They net lost one seat and increased their share of the vote from 7.4% to 11.5%. Is that what you mean by 'absolutely massacred'?

I'd say the term fits with losing 59 seats after 10 years in opposition That's what a hard left set of policies gets you. I personally don't think that Corbyn himself was the main issue - Johnson is just as bad of a leader (and worse in many ways)...but really silly hard left policies killed them. The thing is, that most of them could have proved really popular if they had been moderated. I'm all for nationalising broadband infrastructure for example, but the retail side of things should still be left to private enterprise. I feel the same about all the other nationalisation policy tbh - the infrastructure side of it was great, but we need to leave the end retailing to private enterprise & competition.

Student fees are another good example of a hot topic they failed on - there is a huge misunderstanding of how student finance really works, with thousands (if not millions) believing that it's still a student loan system, when in truth it's not - it's a graduate contribution system where you pay a slightly higher tax rate if your degree helps you get to a good income. This is a mistake of the current government too - it just needs to be re-branded and that whole issue goes away. Before anyone jumps on me - think about this for a moment - with this approach, *everyone* gets an equal chance to go to university - personal/family wealth has nothing to do with it at that point (aside from perhaps the fact more privileged kids generally get better grades, but thats a whole other conversation..). It also means that only those who use the service pay for it, but crucially not up front, and not through debt....this frees up government funding for non university further education, which is a whole sector that definitely needs a boost. We also need to get away from the idea that everyone should or needs to go to university - we need the exact opposite at the moment in our society.

Lastly it's pretty clear that the Labour Parties stance on brexit was wrong - I don't think it would have really mattered if they came out for leave or remain...but they came out with nothing. No firm stance, no position taken on what they would do, and even no clarity on what choices a second referendum would offer.

Labour really need to moderate their current policy ideas, chuck out momentum and come back in 5 years time with a more sensible, less radical & idealistic policies, and ideally leaders who don't come over as anti capitalist lefties, and then they will have a chance. I might even vote for them.

[kalniel]

Labour really need to moderate their current policy ideas, chuck out momentum and come back in 5 years time with a more sensible, less radical & idealistic policies

Labour's policies and leaders will be chosen by their national executive committee.. in which all elected positions are held by momentum members I think. Granted, trade unions hold even more positions so it's not just a momentum sounding board, but it's fair to say that the current NEC were very supportive of Corbyn's position. And I'm not saying this is what happened, but if you do surround yourself with people with the same view as yourself then you should expect to be blindsided by a general public who might not think the same way. Their treatment of Tom Watson for example was not great, and while he's not exactly perfect either, they should have been listening to differing views rather than trying to exclude them. It will be interesting to see what happens next - John McDonnell is already expressing preference for leaders to be chosen from those who had the corbyn viewpoint, so it seems he's perhaps only going to make the problem continue rather than fix it.

[Spud1]

^^ I agree, it needs wholesale change in the party for things to move on, and I doubt the current executive will want to do so.

John McDonnell is a huge part of the problem - he's more hard left than many and has openly admitted this on many occasions. It will indeed be interesting to see what happens next. Maybe a bigger split and a new party? If so, the question is who gets the labour brand - the center left or the hard left? The brand has more to do with this than I think many expect.

[outwar6010]

^^ I agree, it needs wholesale change in the party for things to move on, and I doubt the current executive will want to do so.

John McDonnell is a huge part of the problem - he's more hard left than many and has openly admitted this on many occasions. It will indeed be interesting to see what happens next. Maybe a bigger split and a new party? If so, the question is who gets the labour brand - the center left or the hard left? The brand has more to do with this than I think many expect.

10.3 million people voted for the "hard left".....

[Spud1]

10.3 million people voted for the "hard left".....

and 35 million or so didn't

[pp05]

It doesn't matter who you are, if you're fighting an election where the other side have 1 message and you have lots of policies, you have no chance. That's why a lot of people were scratching their head when Labour agreed to the election. They could have let the Conservatives implode from within the longer it went on. Brexit is their mess.

Theresa May tried the same tactic, but Labour managed to move the debate towards public services and Tories had nothing on that front. This time the Tories still had no policies at home, except brexit. Labour couldn't move the dial over to their favourite topic: NHS.

[[GSV]Trig]

Well, its all over now, let's see how much pre-election stuff starts to slip, no doubt the antisemitism argument will go quiet, as will the Tory Islamaphobia, the Russian report, 31st of Jan is the next bit date, wonder if BoJo will get a 101 excuses for Brexit delays book for Christmas..

[TeePee]

I think there's a good chance Brexit will actually happen now.

For the anti-Semitism scandal to go away, Labour needs a new leader, and one that is more centrist. I'd really like to see that. Generally, I prefer a government that is as close to non-functional as possible, and for that to happen the UK needs a viable opposition. If they keep to their extreme leftist position, then the next election in five years is going to be a massacre. I think there'd be a schism within the party if they try to stay as far left. Government needs an opposition.

[tankizzy]

Really hard to evaluate. Both of them have a lot of cons

[Zak33]

You are absolutely right that my sweeping statement that London is more educated than the rest of the country was inaccurate.

What I should have said is London is the most educated city in Europe:

'London is most educated city in Europe'

I think this settles the debate.

Was there a debate?
If the energy supply was cut to the UK and all the food shipments stopped coming to the UK.. I suggest to you that it's the least educated city, disconnected from rural life, farming, food production, physical labour, weather, climate, or anything that actually sustains the human population.

In short.. you're looking at Graduates, and we like clever.. that's good. .. in the current world, hapy days - they can shine.

But are they better educated to feed their family's when there's a 5 day fuel blockade? Because I remember the last fuel blockade and I recall farmers with plenty of food and city dwellers with no milk or bread.

I have interviewed more graduates than I care to explain - and I have employed less than half of them. The greater half of the people I have accepted for jobs, have been people with actual skills on the job, and no degree.

[Ttaskmaster]

London attracts the brightest. It's as simple as that.

London is where those educated outside of it can so easily manipulate and rip off those living within.
Why do so many of those bright, well educated people work in London, but live outside of it, do you think?

London people are better able to see through the Tory lies.

Why then did they vote for the Labour lies? Are Labour better liars?
I honestly wish Labour had won, just so that people like you could have your faces rubbed in their socialist lies and false dreams, right before the country collapsed...

I can't say the same thing for dull old Reading. Crappy football club and crappy town. Who wants to live in a place like that. Yes I've been to Reading and what a boring place.

You haven't lived here, though. Compare it to Harrow, St Johns Wood or even current day Camden and you'll soon understand...
I, however, have lived in various places around London - You couldn't pay me enough to move back there.

Secondly, all I can see in your post is a classic attempt at a strawman argument in an attempt to elevate your point which to me just equates to nothingness.

Do you actually know of any other logical fallacies or are you, like so many on the internet, just dropping the only one of which you've ever heard?
If you do, why haven't you cited those already prevalent throughout your own posts? To do anything but is a fallacy in itself...

But are they better educated to feed their family's when there's a 5 day fuel blockade? Because I remember the last fuel blockade and I recall farmers with plenty of food and city dwellers with no milk or bread.

Oh, that's only because those backward, inbred, redneck farmer types were too ignorant to get a degree in Modern Klingon and Media Studies, like any decent, self-respecting Labour voter would.
If they'd bothered to learn a proper language instead of whatever they speak out there in farmy Somerset, everything would have been golden, you see...