More Fermi pictures with possible specs??

[scaryjim]

Indeed - but to make claims about a product that you can't substantiate because of an NDA seems at best smug ("I know something you don't know - and I can't tell you") and at worst an unverifiable spoiler tactic for a competing product. As I said, it contributes to the sense that you are not objective.

And yet I'm the only person in this thread who knows something real about what Fermi is. Guess if I had the choice of being "everyone who doesn't believe" and the "guy who really knows what he's talking about" I'm glad I'm the latter.

Perfect case in point. If you have genuine information on Fermi but are under a genuine NDA then how about Not Disclosing anything? I presume the fact that you're under an NDA probably prohibits you from discussing the architecture at all, yet here you are, on a world reknowned tech forum which has previously been frequented by NVidia employees, talking about it (albeit in no great detail). If I was an NVidia rep I'd be pretty annoyed by your actions.

We are all well aware that you have access to priviledged information from NVidia, and that's great for you, but it means absolutely squat until those parts actually get released to retail. The fact that Fermi will be great when it's finally released makes me feel no better about NVidia in the market place right now, and Fermi will have to be more than good - in fact it'll have to offer a lot more than just being faster than a 5970 - to make me give any money to NVidia next time I buy a new graphics card. They've simply generated too much bad feeling over the last year or so, and it would take a technological marvel to overcome that PR barrier...

[nibbler]

I can't see them being competetive in terms of price. Considering the GTX 295 is still more expensive than the 5870, the would have to sell more performance for less moeny to compete.

[shaithis]

And yet I'm the only person in thgis thread who knows something real about what Fermi is. Guess if I had the choice of being "everyone who doesn't believe" and the "guy who really knows what he's talking about" I'm glad I'm the latter.

Do you? What proof have you got? Tell us? Oh whats that....your under NDA and can't say a word? How convenient!

Because some aren't aware of it doesn't mean it's not good. Most people probably don't even turn on AA/AF, but we're all enthusiasts here, so all of us have good reasons to want PhysX. We buy hardware to enhance the gaming experience and make it better than console gaming, so to us PhysX is a great option to have that adds a lot of eye candy.

It is nice to have the option of Physx....would be even nicer if our hardware hadn't been locked out from using it in a childish show of anti-competitive behavior by nVidia AFTER we had made the purchase. Don't you think?

And yet they're the number one selling brand for discrete cards in the world.

Well, when you go out of your way to confuse the average customer by re-branding the same card over and over, I can see how you would have an easier time of being the no 1 discrete card manufacturer.

Just because you have sold the most cards, does not make you product the best or the best value though does it?

A handful of people on forums doesn't equal "they've angered enthusiasts". Until the 5XXX series launched, enthusiast were leaning heavily toward NVIDIA products as they had the market leading single and multi gpu cards, with by far the largest proprietary feature set. ATi gets some weeks to lead the market, then that is over and they'll be back to competing on price.

As for enthusiasts, there aren't many and they are all on forums.....so chances are those handful of people of forums that you see angered (and look around the anger is not just limited to these forums, it's on most enthusiast sites) are pretty much the enthusiasts.....the only enthusiasts they haven't angered are the nVidia fanboys/faithful.

Again, whether people buy it doesn't have anything to do with how good it is. It's a lot of fun to play with, adds a huge amount of immersion to the game.

Really? You do not think there is a correlation between how good something is and how well it sells? Although I guess that makes sense coming from a fanboy with no objectivity.

At CES this year you're going to see a LOT of 3d- the market is shifting that way and NVIDIA lead the way, per usual.

The market is not shifting that way..........there is a small amount of interest in it, there is a huge difference.......but you really should not let me (or reality) get in the way of your rabid fanboyism.....Of course the market is shifting that way, I can already see companies wondering how they will deal with the logistics of every gamer replacing their monitors next year /sarcasm

Using 3d Vision is like looking into a window at a battle of action figures, using a regular monitor is like looking at paper models doing things. It's a big difference. 24" monitors will be launching soon with full HD, and NVIDIA is working with devs to optomize more games for 3d.

People are not buying the 22" models because they cost to much and you think 24" will make the difference? (I am assuming you meant 3D and not HD) Here is a reality check for you: The vast majority of gamers cannot afford to spend £300+ on a monitor, especially when so many will have bought a monitor relatively recently.

As for the paper models comment....LOL. Yes, because 3D generated objects suddenly look completely flat because someone came up with a pseudo-3D technology. At least you won't end up puking over your normal monitor because of the eyestrain from the gimmicky "it's not really 3D, we are just playing tricks on your eyes and brain" technology.

[Rollo]

Indeed - but to make claims about a product that you can't substantiate because of an NDA seems at best smug ("I know something you don't know - and I can't tell you") and at worst an unverifiable spoiler tactic for a competing product. As I said, it contributes to the sense that you are not objective.

You're forgetting the third reason:

Could be that I used to be in the position you're all in and am doing what I can to give you information without violating NDA by releasing specific information, and in this way am hoping to be an asset to the enthusiast community.

I'd note that in the past I've been allowed to release specific pieces of information from NVIDIA pre-NDA, and that straight out lying about their products would mean the end of my association with them. I've had cards as far as two months in advance of launch for evaluation.

If Fermi wasn't going to trump H5870 in some significant ways I wouldn't say it, because I don't want to look like a dumbass when it does launch.

I personally don't care if NVIDIA sells any cards. I get them free and have no reason to care if you all buy them. IMO, if you have no pressing need for a card, it is a good time to wait and see what Fermi brings to the table because there are things about it that aren't known to the public yet that may be a factor to you.

If you want to buy high end today, I'd get a 5870 or 5970 depending on your position on multi GPU configs. (personally I'd do the 5970, but I love multi GPU)

[Rollo]

Shaithis, I get it that you don't like NVIDIA and you don't like me, so I'm not going to bother replying to your rant line by line.

What I will note is that asserting something doesn't have to sell well to be good doesn't make one a "fanboy", it makes a person "correct".

Are Mercedes Benz "good" cars? Yet very few drive them. Anytime a product carries a price premium the market for it is significantly narrowed because most people have limited amounts of disposable income. Doesn't mean the products are bad, just means people don't have as much money as they'd like to have. Everyone on this planet would surely have a dual 5970 + six 30" panel Eye Finity rig, and a 3d Vision rig if they were free. They're not though, so they're not going to be as wodely adopted.

Sometimes price isn't even the factor. For example, Sony beta was a superior format to VHS, and HD-DVD wasn't inferior to Blue Ray. "Fanboy" or "good vs bad" had nothing to do with market adoption.

Last, look at movies. It's often the case where worthless, idiotic dreck like "Coyote Ugly", "Scoobie Doo", "Tranformers" far outsell cinema that is actually thought provoking.

But you wanted to call me a fanboy and contribute to forum unrest with your pointless attack on me so you tried to assign some nefarious motive to me saying 3d Vision is fun to play with.

Like I said, if you don't believe me, why don't you read the end user experiences on the ATi fansite? Those guys have no ties to NVIDIA, and love using their 3d Vision.

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33932576

Or check out the latest review of it:

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/...date/page8.asp

It’s still in its fledgling stages, but 3D Vision is here, and probably not going away any time soon. Comfortable and a lot more aesthetically pleasing than its predecessors, these glasses are already more than capable of transforming most of your favorite games into whole new experiences. NVIDIA is pressing display manufacturers to come up with true 120Hz LCD displays, which is good for more things than 3D.

If RE5 and Batman: AA are any indication, 3D Vision Ready games are starting to roll in. Even without the official endorsement, though, some games put the system to very good use, a la Avatar. I wish I could show you how amazing the stereoscopic effect is, not only in these, but the huge library of compatible DirectX titles previously released. Everything looks smooth and sharp, no matter how far away you are from the screen or the angle you’re viewing it from. It’s something you have to see to believe.

You don't know what you're talking about when you say it will make you sick. My guess is you've never used it. I've been using it for a year, have never "puked", never got a headache. Go figure.

[shaithis]

I do not know if I like you or not.....I haven't met you....What I do not like (in fact, what I hate) are your posts. There is a difference.

You have tried changing your tune over the last week or so but still rabidly defend nVidia at every hurdle, even when you know that some of their practices are not defensible. But you get free stuff from them and therefore feel obliged to defend them, whether through lying or just being selectively gullible......i neither know nor care.

As for nVidia, again as a company I do not hate them, some of their recent business practices on the other hand have angered me. There are no good reasons for those choices either, some of which they hide behind blatant BS to cover their asses. There is no need for it and they can change it IF they wanted to and IF they wanted to be fair. I guess time will tell if they feel guilty enough or not.....but being a corporation you can probably guess the answer....most don't do guilt.

You comments about brands are quite interesting.....nice to see you agree that marketing can win over the superior product....Although something tells me that if Fermi released and was not as good as the current 5xxx series, you would soon change your tune and harp on about any exclusive feature that Fermi has, completely ignore the rest....At least that's the only conclusion I can draw from reading your posts on hexus. This is the issue I have.

As for movies, again marketing can win people over.....and there is also no accounting for taste is there?

And I have no doubt 3D can be fun, if it doesn't make you sick. BTW, I have tried EVERY 3D technology that I am aware of and I cannot play any of them for long.......and when you understand how all these techs work you would understand that you should count yourself lucky if they do not effect you.

Although must suck to be one of the people who reads your posts and gets the impression that it cannot cause sickness, eyestrain or headaches.....then goes out and spends 300-1000ukp on a new monitor and gfx card to try it, only to find they are effected by it.

Never mind though, another sale for nVidia and more chance your freebies will keep rolling in....no?

[Zhaoman]

And I have no doubt 3D can be fun, if it doesn't make you sick. BTW, I have tried EVERY 3D technology that I am aware of and I cannot play any of them for long.......and when you understand how all these techs work you would understand that you should count yourself lucky if they do not effect you.

Although must suck to be one of the people who reads your posts and gets the impression that it cannot cause sickness, eyestrain or headaches.....then goes out and spends 300-1000ukp on a new monitor and gfx card to try it, only to find they are effected by it.

This issue is actually quite interesting and I think I can discuss this a little bit. The reality is none of what you see on a computer screen is '3D'. The traditional '3D' games (most games ) are displayed as a 'perspective' projection onto a 2D 'screen'. This merely gives an illusion of depth if you can understand it, and this new stereoscopic '3D' is also just another illusion to suggest depth when really there isn't any.

What is interesting is that some people see this new stereoscopic 3D and say they're not used to it and it makes them sick. What some people may not realise is that it has been shown that we are not born accustommed to 'perspective' projections either; for example some of the more indigenous populations around the world who have never seen modern technology cannot interpret the depth when shown perspective projections. They see it as a sickeningly distorted image. So I think while this new technology may make people sick it probably only takes a while for you to get used to it. I think it's not unreasonable to assume that most people will see it as second nature after being exposed to it for a while, just as we are used to perspective projections because have been exposed to them pretty much since birth.

On the general issue of nVidia losing favour with enthusiasts I think that is very true, especially the enthusiasts who like to keep up to date with tech news. And it is we who I would imagine are the ones who would buy the top-end components they release so if nVidia wish to still be the market leader in that segment they better wise-up soon. Also Rollo can you not see how stupid a post that says "Fermi is gonna be so amazing" looks. It doesn't actually say anything and if questioned further you can't say any more... So I think it's a good idea to tone down the 'Fermi amazingness' updates every other post because I think we are all excited about nVidia's next product and we don't need someone constantly reminding us.

[Rollo]

This issue is actually quite interesting and I think I can discuss this a little bit. The reality is none of what you see on a computer screen is '3D'. The traditional '3D' games (most games ) are displayed as a 'perspective' projection onto a 2D 'screen'. This merely gives an illusion of depth if you can understand it, and this new stereoscopic '3D' is also just another illusion to suggest depth when really there isn't any.

What is interesting is that some people see this new stereoscopic 3D and say they're not used to it and it makes them sick. What some people may not realise is that it has been shown that we are not born accustommed to 'perspective' projections either; for example some of the more indigenous populations around the world who have never seen modern technology cannot interpret the depth when shown perspective projections. They see it as a sickeningly distorted image. So I think while this new technology may make people sick it probably only takes a while for you to get used to it. I think it's not unreasonable to assume that most people will see it as second nature after being exposed to it for a while, just as we are used to perspective projections because have been exposed to them pretty much since birth.

On the general issue of nVidia losing favour with enthusiasts I think that is very true, especially the enthusiasts who like to keep up to date with tech news. And it is we who I would imagine are the ones who would buy the top-end components they release so if nVidia wish to still be the market leader in that segment they better wise-up soon. Also Rollo can you not see how stupid a post that says "Fermi is gonna be so amazing" looks. It doesn't actually say anything and if questioned further you can't say any more... So I think it's a good idea to tone down the 'Fermi amazingness' updates every other post because I think we are all excited about nVidia's next product and we don't need someone constantly reminding us.

Zhaoman- I'm not saying Fermi is amazing, I'm saying there are factors about it that are as yet unknown and will make a difference to some people.

3d Vision is a much better illusion, things on the screen appear to be solid and occupy space, and are different distances from you.

[cptwhite_uk]

I'm not saying Fermi is amazing

Quote of the week?

[ajones]

i'm not saying fermi is amazing

quote of the week?

omg! I've heard less convincing marital vows compared to Rollo talking about nVidia.

I think he needs to check the definition of delusion.

[Rollo]

omg! I've heard less convincing marital vows compared to Rollo talking about nVidia.

I think he needs to check the definition of delusion.

What I've said will be proven true soon, until then, feel free to say I'm crazy.

I've never understood how people don't get that I'm not speculating about anything. Oh well.

Keep on believing fermi will be slow and offer no reasons to purchase it over the mighty 5870- you have the ability to offer that guess a little while longer.

[GheeTsar]

I've never understood how people don't get that I'm not speculating about anything. Oh well.

While I don't doubt you get a lot of "inside" gumph from NVIDIA, it is hard to believe that anything other than speculation can be said about the speed of Fermi with any degree of certainty at this stage. If the A2 silicon came out of the "oven" unsatisfactorily and the third spin is currently being processed, there is no way thay you, nor anyone else at NVIDIA will know how successful this spin will be. If it turns out that it can't be clocked as high as hoped, the speed will then not be as quick as hoped. I therefore suggest that anything NVIDIA have provided you can only be based on what they are hoping the outcome to be.

To say you that you are not speculating about anything, to me, is somewhat far fetched.

[ajones]

What I've said will be proven true soon, until then, feel free to say I'm crazy.

I've never understood how people don't get that I'm not speculating about anything. Oh well.

Keep on believing fermi will be slow and offer no reasons to purchase it over the mighty 5870- you have the ability to offer that guess a little while longer.

I think you've lost the plot.

We *hope* you are right.

We *want* competition.

I for one, *want* to read a post about graphics card performance or some possibly dubious speculation without the inevitable Rollo post going on about 3d Vision and PhysX, and how Fermi is going to have me making a mess in my trousers. [That would be quite an interesting feeling tbh., but somehow I doubt even the mighty Fermi could manage it]

Hexus doesn't back the brand. We back products within a certain market segment under discussion that are *best*.

I don't understand your incessant bleating on about Fermi for the last couple of months and your seeming desire to come across as a martyr; Post a joke, accuse someone of having a small penis; I don't care, just change the record!

[mercyground]

http://www.hwupgrade.it/forum/showpo...ostcount=11445

http://www.nvidia.com/docs/IO/43395/...83-001_v01.pdf

So. Let me get this straight.

512 SPs is now just 448 SPs with a 225W TDP?
And these are the picked out ones?

I'm going to add another two months onto my March date and another rebrand at least.

/me shakes his head.
This is what happens when you let marketeers run your company instead of engineers.

Someone should make this saga into a Dilbert strip. Its the same epicness of failure.

[Rollo]

http://www.hwupgrade.it/forum/showpo...ostcount=11445

http://www.nvidia.com/docs/IO/43395/...83-001_v01.pdf

So. Let me get this straight.

512 SPs is now just 448 SPs with a 225W TDP?
And these are the picked out ones?

I'm going to add another two months onto my March date and another rebrand at least.

/me shakes his head.
This is what happens when you let marketeers run your company instead of engineers.

Someone should make this saga into a Dilbert strip. Its the same epicness of failure.

You do understand that the specs for the workstation Tesla cards are totally unrelated to the specs for the GTX380 consumer card, right?

Want to bet me a bottle of my favorite tequila (Patron Silver) that you're wrong about specs and release date?

[Bugbait]

Maybe a little less of the smug, arrogant tone and people will be less hostile towards you Rollo? You remind me a little of a clown on the Be forums a while back who claimed he was a "hacker rockstar", oh so famous and the grandfather of modern PC's (ok, I added the last bit in to complete my picture). Although he had no proof and ignored every question asking for proof.

I use Nvida and ATI in almost equal measure, ie. Brand agnostic. I buy the fastest and best GFX card for my needs at the time I feel like making an upgrade.

Guess if I had the choice of being "everyone who doesn't believe" and the "guy who really knows what he's talking about" I'm glad I'm the latter.

My case in point. I personally couldn't care less about vaporware, which is exactly what Fermi is at this point to the average consumer.

Most people probably don't even turn on AA/AF, but we're all enthusiasts here, so all of us have good reasons to want PhysX. We buy hardware to enhance the gaming experience and make it better than console gaming, so to us PhysX is a great option to have that adds a lot of eye candy.

Please don't presume to know what everyone wants. None of the games I currently play require or even have an option for PhysX so the technology, while essential to some, means absolutely nothing to me. Most of my friends are in a similar boat. We are not FPS gamers.

At CES this year you're going to see a LOT of 3d- the market is shifting that way and NVIDIA lead the way, per usual.

You do realize that some people suffer from motion sickness and thus can't play any FPS style games? When the 3D technology matures to a point when eye-wear (ie. glasses) isn't required then I'll take an interest. Until then, it's too uncomfortable.