A Deep Question ref these new Cards Open GL Ability

[Zak33]

It sems that Doom III will be the Open GL benchy for a while now.
Direct 3d has always been based around 3D Mark 2001, cos most games were DX8.1 rather than 9......but 3DMar 2003 is starting to grab your attentions now its watchable.

The question is......and it goes deep.....should we all use this hyper tweaked game (DIII) to base our OTHER Open GL decisions on?

Cos most of my fellow IL-2 pilots use Open GL even tho D3D is a choice in game.

SO......with 6800 Pro's looking like stealing people's nxt pay cheque.....can I be SURE that the Open GL performance is gonna be as good all over?

I mean...it SHOULD be, cos its an architecture to call graphics cards to action...and therefore the same hooks much be used, the same strings pulled.....

BUT if the GAME is tweaked for the CARD its not the card thats so damn good, is it?

[Noxis]

I do not believe D3 is tweaked for any card specifically. NVIDIA are always the strongest for OpenGL, the rads weak.

In theory any OpenGL game is going to run better on a NVIDIA based card over the ATI's.

[Zak33]

not sure that is still the case....it used to be, I agree, but not so much anymore.

I agree 3dmark is not tweaked for cards..its why its so well respected.

The danger I point out is that DoomIII might be superb on a 6800 BUT that might not be just cos the card is good at Open GL.

Does that make sense?

[Stoo]

You're thinking that the game is specifically tweaked for nv cards?

I was wondering the same thing..

[Agent]

I agree 3dmark is not tweaked for cards..its why its so well respected.

But the drivers have been tweaked for 3D mark, which is just as bad.

As for the question : No, we shouldnt base our decisions on just doom3. Idealy you want benchmarks from a RANGE of applications. If one is just used, tweaking of some kind will show up at some point or another.
UT2004 has an OGL render. It must be able to bechmark in it, one way or another.

If just one application is used for bechmarking, we run the risk of performace going up in that application, and dropping for the rest. Obviously, this just means that people buying the cards will think they are better than they are in real world terms.

If you want to base your OGL decisions on an application, dont use another one as the benchmark . Its perfectly feasable that a driver could be made that increases doom 3's frame rate, but declines IL2's. If you want to base your decisions on Il2, then bechmark / monitor Il2's performace, not doom 3's

[Stoo]

Wasn't UT 2004's OGL renderer a bit dodgy though?

IL2 should be a good benchy, and we've got a couple of peeps with the next-gen cards (Shoit and Capt. Douf..), I'm sure we could put together a nice track to really test the cards.. I'm thinking flak, and lots of it

[Agent]

Wasn't UT 2004's OGL renderer a bit dodgy though?

In what way ?
I know a few features wont render in OGL (such as projectors).

[Stoo]

Oh, I just heard that it was far inferior to the d3d renderer, hence why you can only get OGL if you manually edit the config file. Other words like unsupported were also mentioned..

Is that bunk then?

[Noxis]

not sure that is still the case....it used to be, I agree, but not so much anymore.

I agree 3dmark is not tweaked for cards..its why its so well respected.

The danger I point out is that DoomIII might be superb on a 6800 BUT that might not be just cos the card is good at Open GL.

Does that make sense?

I dont see how 3dmark is relevant as its not OpenGL.

Check Jedi Knight benchies, thats an updated OpenGL engine.

[Zak33]

I dont see how 3dmark is relevant as its not OpenGL.

You're right...its not...its the exact opposite end of the scale...its why I used it.

My cack wording...sorry dude. I mean the 3dmark CAN be trusted for D3D but DoomIII CANT be used as such.

But,,,,,cis Agent keeps me on the straight and narrow, he points out that various other drivers WERE 3DMark tweaked.

I spend an inordinant amount of time trying to help the IL-2 community on video cards and the like.

I cant afford to get me a 6800 Pro just to test....nor an X800.....and cos the world think the IL-2 community is small (wrong...more wrong than a wrong thing at a convention of wrong things, and coming first) no one uses Il-2 as a benchy.

Stoo...I have pondered that for AGES mate....bloody ages.

But HOW to do it.....consistently.

I'm probably the only person here with access to as much kit as most gamers can get too...but I have no way of DOING an IL-2 Forgotten Battle's benchy

[Shoit]

Im quite happy to do some tests (when i get a damn card that it! - been waiting 3 weeks now!) Ill be getting either a PNY 6800GT or a XFX 6800GT and twinning it with a 3000 AMD64 chip so should be able to get some good benchies!

Kev

[Agent]

Oh, I just heard that it was far inferior to the d3d renderer, hence why you can only get OGL if you manually edit the config file. Other words like unsupported were also mentioned..

Is that bunk then?

Well the linux render is all done in OGL, so it cant be that bad.
I just tried both, and took screenshots from the same spot using each of the renders.
The mask on the earth moves, so the images arnt 100% the same. Other than that, they are pixel accurate as for the location of the screenshot.
Linkage

There was a few small differences when playing the game, but hardly noticable.

[Stoo]

Ah, good news then

[Punisher]

For those talking about GL for Doom 3 and the ATI vs. nVidia card choices, just think of this: Doom 3 will have the nVidia logo and the "The way its meant to be played" slogan on it (http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_doom3_home.html) Does that mean the nVidia is just better, or does it mean that the game was tweaked towards nVidia, its up to you to decide. Personally, and im still debating X800 or 6800, im going to get the card that is better accross the board and not just in one game. You need to think about the long run and not just games until Christmas (unless you have the money to toss at a new card every 6 months or so).

[Boogle]

Doom3 definately hasn't been optimised for any specific cards. Its clear the Carmack is very level headed (read 'Masters of Doom' a book about id Software from before they were even devs, to the start of Doom III). Doom3 features help from both ATi and NV (check the numerous .plans).

It is clear that NV's driver in OpenGL is extremely optimised, which isn't surprising since NV is made up of some ex-SGI staff. If you look at the Anandtech g card reviews, the FX5950 Ultra beats the X800XT PE in Jedi Academy In the other OGL benchies the 6800 is mostly (always?) better than the X800XT PE.

Edit: I totalled up (in the 6800 Ultra Extreme Anand review) the wins for each card. The 6800 (Ultra) beat the XT PE in one more benchmark. Its that close. Thats at 1600x1200 4x AA 8x AF, without AA and AF the 6800 wins a lot more. However I'm addicted to AA, so thats why I totalled it up with AA.

[Firebar]

I dont know how long I can hold on till the Halflife 2 benchmarks. I'm going to need a card in 2 weeks . Either an XT-PE or a GT for me.