Are we being sold the modern day version of snake-oil?

[Rave]

A classic example is the soft mod you could do on some Radeon cards to give you the same performance as a more expensive one... Or they just ramp up the clock speeds and flog it off at a higher price. Why couldn't they just have released the card with the higher clock speeds at the lower price in the first place?

That's true of most PC components, and most technology in general.

What really makes me laugh is that competitively, most player knock all the bells and whistles off to give them a better view of whats going on in the game... yet here they are with £400 pounds worth of card not even close to breaking a sweat.

Is that true? All the comparison shots I've seen in graphics card reviews seem to show that Anisotropic filtering increases the detail level in the distance. That brings me on to another area where more graphics card power helps: increasing the draw distance. At the moment developers still have to use fog effects(?) or risk popups if the card doesn't have the power to render every single polygon in the scene. In Tribes 2 (which I'll have to keep using as an example as it's the only game I play) a sniper 400m away on a hill apprears as just a pixel or two on my screen at 1280x960. I reckon someone playing at 640x480 might not be able to spot them, whereas I frequently do. If I was a better player I might actually be able to do something about them. Anyway, I think that being able to cram more detail onto larger screens could well improve the gaming experience, quite aside from the debate over whether gorgeous looking games are actually more fun to play. Having enjoyed the demo levels of Far Cry, I thought the eye candy did genuinely add to the atmosphere.

As for the number of FPS the eye can actually 'see'- it is true that (depending I think on the eye's distance from the screen) 50-90Hz is enough to appear 'flicker free'. Films, BTW, have 24 frames per second, but each is displayed twice to avoid the flicker of the light being obvious. However, it is possible for the eye to notice images displayed for as little as 1/300th of a second, thanks to the persistence of vision effect. A higher refresh rate could debatably therefore help when gaming, although I imagine the law of diminishing returns sets in over 100Hz.



Rich :¬)

[SilentDeath]

Firstly the eye can notice very short things - becuase some of the cells in the eye ONLY react to change.
Rave, in cinema, each frame is shown 3 times, although your right on tv it is twice (50hz, 24fps interlaced... )

Whether its snake oil or not, are you stupid enough to buy it anyway, becuase a company says you need it? No ones forcing you to buy it, but Id rather have the option to buy then not.

OR

When you see the ANNOYING nvidia TWIMTBP logo, do you think "yes, ofcourse", or do you think, "how much money did that advert cost them".

[exAndrzej]

Having been in the IT industry for a couple of decades, I can tell you that everyone - users and publications alike - focus almost exclusively on what is out now PLUS what is just around the corner

Users who made good choices - will be able to play top games at sensible settings for a long time

When they look at the 'next big thing', they may not always see a compelling reason to updrade

However, if you are looking at the 'next big thing + 1 generation' then you may start to see a lag in performance

The 9700 Pro was a great card when it launched - easily the fastest thing anyone had ever put in their gaming box - and those who bought it felt pride in their decision for a long while after

Now if you were to fire it up in Doom 3 or Half Life 2 at 1600x1200 with 4x/8x you may well consider asking Santa to drop an X800 series card in your stocking

This is the problem with looking at improvements in graphics as a series of 'small steps'

Each step on its own will give you a measurable improvement - but run that sequence of improvements over several years and you'll end up far ahead of your starting point

The same is true for computer generated images in the cinema

If you look at CGI twenty years ago then - at the time - it was considered pretty advanced

When you see those films now - although the plots might be fantastic - you can't help but notice just how ropey the CGI is

However, if it were not for a massive, expensive and continuous programme of development work across the globe - Tron would never have evolved into Gollum

All of the manufacturers develop what they believe to be the best card possible at the time they are launched

Will those cards be superceded ?
Yes.

Do you need to rush out and buy the very latest card as it hits the shelves ?
That is a matter of personal choice, judgement and budget.

Will we carry on pushing forward the technology forward to enable the games of the future ?
Definitely !

Where will we end up ?

Developers I have spoken with tell me that, at some point in the future, games will be 'films in which you are the star'

They should be 'perfect' in everyway possible - from graphics to physics to AI so that the overall experience is as immersive as possible

Will those games play on today's cards at maximum resolution/quality settings ?

You already know the answer to that one



.
"Details began emerging of there new, revised graphics card; one that would finally rip away the performance crown that NVIDIA had held on to for so long. There's a new Sheriff in town. Meaner, sleeker, and faster than anything that has come before. The R9700 has landed."
Hexus.net
......................3rd Oct 2002

[SilentDeath]

They should be 'perfect' in everyway possible - from graphics to physics to AI so that the overall experience is as immersive as possible

If only they had good storys? imo the days of half-life/tombraider style puzzles are going, we need film like storys for our games.


One way to think of it is this, they are making it CHEAPER for you. By selling crappy cards to those who cba to research what they are buying, they reduce the preimium needed for the top of the range cards. Most people will just goto pc world, that, and OEM, is where most of the profits are. That is whats pushing technology forward.
Remember the cost of a card isnt just what it costs to make, but also to design, and perfect. You get a LOT for your money which is not always obvious.

[exAndrzej]

I have to say that you are right

High end graphics is the tip of the iceberg - with more than 9 tenths happening further down the product range

These days, the most common 'high tech luxury' purchase (that happens with frightening regularity) is the mobile phone

Need a new handset or not - we are all out there swapping at the first oportunity

If Motorola choose Imageon for a complete range of phones - just think of how many 3D GPUs that represents !

And, ultimately, it is all for a good cause

Customers buying chips in phones, TVs and game consoles are doing their bit to fund the next generation of research at the tip of the 'berg

[Rave]

Firstly the eye can notice very short things - becuase some of the cells in the eye ONLY react to change.
Rave, in cinema, each frame is shown 3 times, although your right on tv it is twice (50hz, 24fps interlaced... )

I'm 90% certain that the Victoria 5 we had at my university film society showed each frame twice- that was from winding it on by hand and having a look.

Rich :¬)

[Stoo]

Welcome to HEXUS Andrzej

Do you really know what you've let yourself in for?

[exAndrzej]

Hi Stoo,

I read somewhere that it is good to talk

Also, in my experience, you need to put yourself out there in the 'real world' or you will never know what is really going on

PLUS if you all hurt my feelings too much - I will run away and cry (looks for 'sad' emoticon - finds none - Stoo needs to imagine animated, sobbing smiley)

[Zak33]

oooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

and ATI bloke

I gotta tell you, your drivers are ACE. So easy to put in and take out. I love them, and would like to marry you. Thanks

Back on Topic.

*blush*

[exAndrzej]

...can't be bothered to implement a system which does throttle it...

Doom 3 throttles at 60 - which most gamers accept is plenty good enough

In terms of throttling within the card - you'd probably find that the additional work required to control dynamic frame rates is simpy not worth the effort

We bang out as many as we can and the display does its best to show them

[yamangman]

OOoooooo as zak said, an ATi bloke! Drivers for Linux! Drivers for Linux! Drivers for Linux! Drivers for Linux! Drivers for Linux! Drivers for Linux! Drivers for Linux!

[exAndrzej]

The Hexus hierarchy were whisked off to a secret Munchen location a few weeks back where - among smashing tables and bizarre Absinthe rituals...

...Terry Makedon (ATI's Catalyst guru) explained that we would be revamping our Linux offering in 2005...

...so - watch this space !

[Steve]

...Terry Makedon (ATI's Catalyst guru) explained that we would be revamping our Linux offering in 2005...

That's good news. While it's understandable that Linux drivers aren't a priority, given that most purchasers of the cards, be they in retail or other channels, won't be useing Linux; providing good performing, easy to use Linux drivers can only strengthen ATi.

[Nick]

Andrzej, first off, thanmks for taking the time to register and all that malarkey and then post some thoughts on the discussion.

I'd just like to make it clear that I am NOT knocking ATi OR nVidia OR any manufacturer in particular... in fact I'm not knocking anyone at all, just questioning stuff...

I think you made a very valid point that buying a good card will then set you up for the next couple of years... that's provided the card's features are supported by developers... I had Matrox G400 with hardware bumpmapping ...and no-one wrote a damn thing for it for ages... by the time it was the norm to support it, the card was too damn slow to run anything!

The problem, I think, is knowing WHEN to buy. 9800s are well cheap now and decent cards, but will the be able to run games in 2 years time? But if I get myself a a bleeding edge card now, I know it'll run the games in 2 years time but it will have a cost me an arm and leg.... then be half the price a year on from buying it... it's a tricky one....

I'm REALLY interested in the throttling in Doom 3... if 60 fps is plenty, (as I've been saying for years, but no-one listens to me... ) why is there such an emphasis on framerates as a selling point for cards?

Of course, what would be REALLY good would be for someone from nVidia to come in here and have a say too... any takers?

ps. I love you're drivers too... rolling back to Cat4.1s to be able to play Pacific Fighters glitch free was as easy as an easy thing in Easyland...

[eUphoria]

I disagree, purely because of the slowdowns that I get on my 9800 Pro with AA and AF on to a decent level - yes, it can still look good, but on an xp2400/9800pro/nforce2 system can't make it look good at a constant fps above 40 - and that is why I'd upgrade if I had the money.

Playable eye candy is the game - a 9800 Pro just doesn't quite cut it for me, shame I'm cashless.

I think the 9800p may be enough to run the game ok (thats what ive got), but im suffering terrible looping and stuttering occaisionally - im blaming my ram (only 512).

[Lowe]

Just my 2 pence... Efficient coding is out there people. Have a look at this...

Download me --> http://www.scene.org/file_dl.php?url....zip&id=185190

64k zip. Run the .exe.....

[edit] Warning the above link has a female "shape" in it that might not be work suitable. It's not rude, but the warning's there none the less [/edit]

More "efficient" coding:

http://www.farb-rausch.com/

Have a look at the 64k ones in particular.