Predictions on when GPUs will be back at RRP.

[Super_Ace]

I think it's important to look at the breakdown of people who were buying those cards at the inflated prices. A lot miners were happy to pay those prices becuase they knew they could make their money back. No doubt GPUs will get more expensive but most of the market buts budget cards.

[spacein_vader]

I think it's important to look at the breakdown of people who were buying those cards at the inflated prices. A lot miners were happy to pay those prices becuase they knew they could make their money back. No doubt GPUs will get more expensive but most of the market buts budget cards.

Which is why AMD & Nvidia have carefully removed/changed the definition of budget cards. The ones further down are in short supply or weak for the price, the old budget cards have been moved to the £300+ price points.

I think blaming miners is a mistake, mining hasn't made sense on GPUs for at least 18 months unless you have a supply of free electricity.

[Spreadie]

I think blaming miners is a mistake, mining hasn't made sense on GPUs for at least 18 months unless you have a supply of free electricity.

Really?

So, my 3090 hasn't paid for it self twice over, after electricity costs, in less than a year?

[[GSV]Trig]

Really?

So, my 3090 hasn't paid for it self twice over, after electricity costs, in less than a year?

Agreed..

I got my 3060Ti in December when they were released, I didn't start mining till Feb time when I started travelling with work again, what I mined on the 3060Ti paid for the 3080 and a monitor upgrade, plus most of the other upgrades I've done in the last I also had made enough that I was comfortable selling the 3060Ti to a mate for £300..

Yeah prices have dropped but even now, after electricity my 3080FE is still clearing £100 a month, and if/when BTC goes up, well, what I have mined now, and been paid in BTC for, will also go up...

[ChaosUK]

Yeah prices have dropped but even now, after electricity my 3080FE is still clearing £100 a month, and if/when BTC goes up, well, what I have mined now, and been paid in BTC for, will also go up...

i am still debating this.. as it would be nice to recoup atleast part of the price of my 3080 i am just not sure if it will not kill my memory in the long run.
Is Nicehash the way to go?

[[GSV]Trig]

If you dont have the time and knowledge to go down a separate pool route and mine specific coins on the chance that they'll go up, Nicehash is the easiest way, you basically rent out your GPU to mine whatever people pay for on Nicehash and then get paid in BTC.

I've got my RAM running at +1050Mhz and sat at 98oC and its been fine since the middle of the year mining pretty much 24/7.

[Spreadie]

If you dont have the time and knowledge to go down a separate pool route and mine specific coins on the chance that they'll go up, Nicehash is the easiest way, you basically rent out your GPU to mine whatever people pay for on Nicehash and then get paid in BTC.

I've got my RAM running at +1050Mhz and sat at 98oC and its been fine since the middle of the year mining pretty much 24/7.

There's room for improvement on the memory junction temperature. Have you considered replacing the thermal pads? My 3090's RAM temp would hit the 110 degree limiter whilst hashing, and it would stay there until I dropped the hashrate to around 95MH/s; and even then it would only bring the temp down to 104 degrees.

After swapping out for some 12.8w/mk thermal pads, it hash at 120+ MH/s with the memory temp at 84-86 degrees.

I know there RAM chip layout differs between the 3080 and 3090, and the 3090 has chips on the rear of the PCB, but the stock pads are total frikkin garbage - from what I can gather, the stock pads are rated between 3 and 6 w/mk. I am assuming yours is an FE model, but even AIB cards benefit from better pads.

[[GSV]Trig]

There's room for improvement on the memory junction temperature.

Yeah did the pad mod a month or so into owning the card, temps were 104oC before I did.
I've also moved from an mATX case to an iTX case, so I'm happy with 98oC as that's the same as I got in the mATX case after the pad swap, so to get the same in the iTX case works for me

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Nearly a year later I would say not at this rate for a while as people excuse make for higher GPU pricing because they can mine,and have loads of spare computers so they can do other stuff(not like they are really gaming on them if there is 24/7 mining). So basically you save up to get a new GPU(especially the expensive ones which are good at mining),but then to make it affordable you need to tend piss around with to make it affordable.

It's almost like someone saying their cocaine habit is affordable,and then reselling some of their stash for a profit. Most normal PC gamers I know,who just after spending all day working just want to have their PC do play a game,etc have just given up.

If they are working from home on that PC,are they really going to mine? Or maybe a family member needs to use that PC for something(or their kid wants to use it for example). Known many who decided to either get a console,or if they did manage to upgrade at some point have longterm decided that if the market stays like this for the next few years,these will be the last gaming PCs they own/build. All the dorks on forums think its all business as usual,whilst enriching greedy companies who have literally destroyed the mainstream and entry level markets. Its like some weird Stockholm Syndrome.

Rubbish like the 6500XT is most definitely not the case of a normal market.


Because of the idiot gamers,miners,etc who excuse make for higher pricing especially scalpers pricing,channels like MLID have pointed out Nvidia is now quietly trying to remove RRPs from newer releases. I wonder how long before FE models won't happen,to even have the illusion of an RRP. No RRP.....let that sink in for a while.....even Apple has RRPs. Nvidia/AMD have now decided their RRPs were too low because gamers can now "mine" and get rich quickly.


AMD in reality has done this as their RRP reference models are barely available. It's another hobby which has been destroyed by scalpers and "investors" so the reality for most normal folk its better to not bother. I will see how the next three years go because after that point I might need to upgrade,and if its more of this excuse making of having to mine to make things affordable,out I go out of PC building,etc. Will just get a laptop and play Indie games and that is that.

I can see lots of my mates going that way too(if they haven't already done it). My PC tech spend will actually go down and I can see that with lots of mates,who have slowly gotten fedup with all of this and slowly doing the same. Their spare money is going towards other areas now. People have got better things to do than pay extortionate amounts for a sodding GPU which already has a decently high RRP,overpriced motherboards,etc then have to eff around with PCs to "make it affordable". It's like saying you can make your car more affordable by renting it out as a hire car to random strangers. Just because you have a spare room in your home,does not mean you have to rent it out to make your mortgage "lower".

Unless Intel really tries to rock the boat,the next generation is not going to be priced well and it will have zero to do with any material costs. Miners/enthusiasts have told these companies their RRPs were too low,and that RRPs are pointless. People excuse made with the £1000 Titan dGPUs when the best dGPUs used to be under £600,and we saw where that went. Now its 100x worse.

In the end better to just try and get a console(something like an XBox Series S) or use your phone and just play on that. This is shown by the fact that over half of modern gaming revenue(I believe its about 75%) is outside PC,and most won't be on forums talking about it either.

It makes me wonder with the world trying to move towards normality with the pandemic(instead of repeated lockdowns,etc where people are stuck at home),whether in a few years things will not look that great. Nvidia/AMD have taken advantage of a situation where loads had to upgrade PCs because of WFH and lockdowns,but now we are moving away from this slowly as the global economy needs to start re-opening,and people want to start going out more,etc. I certainly will be pushing more and more of my spare budget towards other things now.

It was a great run for 20 years,but it is what it is.

But by then Nvidia/AMD will have backed themselves into a corner WRT with GPU prices,and their own investors won't respond well with prices being pushed downwards. So they might just do an Apple and target lower sales,but at much higher margins.

[ChaosUK]

Because of the idiot gamers,miners,etc who excuse make for higher pricing especially scalpers pricing,channels like MLID have pointed out Nvidia is now quietly trying to remove RRPs from newer releases. I wonder how long before FE models won't happen,to even have the illusion of an RRP. No RRP.....let that sink in for a while.....even Apple has RRPs. Nvidia/AMD have now decided their RRPs were too low because gamers can now "mine" and get rich quickly.

that is the biggest problem... as long as people will be willing to buy gpu's for those sky high prices it will never go back to "normal"

[kalniel]

So they might just do an Apple and target lower sales,but at much higher margins.

They've been doing this for years now, it's the way things have to head when PC ownership is no longer mainstream, like it used to be.

I agree this generation has stalled because of external-to-gaming factors - not just mining (and scalpers/miners are not idiots, they're just not necessarily gamers). And the way we fogeys play might also have to take a backseat eventually. But PC gaming will come back - you just have to look how the new generation are gaming to be assured of that. Anecdotally they aren't interested in consoles, but it's all PC - custom minecraft, roblox etc. I just helped a 12 year old build a PC for their Christmas present, and they're not a nerd by any stretch of the imagination, it's seriously what they and all their friends do for gaming these days.

[DanceswithUnix]

Unless Intel really tries to rock the boat,the next generation is not going to be priced well and it will have zero to do with any material costs.

At work our product relies on an Intel (Altera) FPGA. Everyone is on allocation, so we were told we would probably not get all the parts we ordered. Sure enough they reduced our drop... to zero. Lead time on component orders is well over a year.

Given Intel can't full-fill existing orders, I'm really not expecting them to rock the boat for another 2 years. If they do, then that might be why you can't buy your (insert random product name here) atm.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The issue is we on forums tend to surround ourselves with people/families who are PC centric. Outside those who PC enthusiasts,most gamers I know who are not techy,don't have mates are techie,etc and their families tend to play on phones and consoles. Most of the non-techy PC gamers I know play games which can run on integrated graphics and the low power dGPUs in laptops. Even amongst my mates,many of which are techy types,work in science and the computing area,etc most of their families and friends use laptops and tablets. Many of them too are shifting away from desktops to laptops too. Even their work is the same.Desktops increasingly are in a minority and newish desktops even more so in my group of realworld contacts,and cost and convenience are the two main factors.

This is matched by the fact that most gaming revenue is not from PC.....but from phone and console games. Also the fact the PC games with the best revenue are ones which seem to be made to run on toasters but also means that consoles/game streaming/smartphone/tablets are increasingly getting ports of them. Even Blizzard is now targeting mobile - one of the biggest gaming companies in terms of revenue is Tencent,who are mostly in that space.

The reality I don't think things are going to rebound in the way people think - sadly miners/PC gamers have basically shown the mainstream market was "too cheap" and as time progresses the sub £400 market will cease to be having any decent products at the current trajectory. I warned people years ago about the £1000 Titans,and the market never recovered when gamers accepted the doubling of dGPU prices within a generation. The market is full of whales now - seriously the RRPs are bad enough,but paying £300 for a £200 dGPU?? 2X or 3X RRP?? The RRPs already take into consideration price fluctuations.



Nvidia now is apparently removing RRPs - I have never seen this happen before in other electronics markets?

Why because the mining whales and gamer whales just borrowed/found every single penny they could find and throws it at stuff. How many of these lot have eaten into savings or taken credit out to buy all this stuff??

Enthusiasts and gamers mock Apple fans,but not even Apple fans do that! I simply don't want to be part of this nonsense anymore because of the whales,and sadly more and more of my techy mates are also increasingly agreeing with this.

I see this with people keeping their dGPUs longer and longer,meaning the main advantage the PC desktop platform has(which is processing power) is broken. So for many a console is a massive upgrade in performance.

Consoles already are starting to accept modding,and once there is better support for keyboard and mouse,there is really no advantage for a gaming desktop/laptop anymore for a lot of normal people. This is where MS is going. Then you have things like game streaming and I know people who can't find or couldn't afford the idiot money for a new dGPU start using those services. A new console is not only cheaper,but can plug into the TV they already have,and takes up less space in their home. A laptop can be placed anywhere,etc.

If people think its bad here - think of PC gamers in poorer parts of the world including mates I know elsewhere. The dGPU price increases have been devastating. A £120~£150 class dGPU selling for nearly £300(RX6500XT)might be an annoyance here,but in many countries £150 extra is a massive amount. I know people who when their dGPUs went kaput literally stopped PC gaming as they couldn't find a dGPU. For example look at the Lowspecgamer's channel - he talks about how this is really starting to cause problems in emerging PC markets elsewhere.

I know mates who decent salaries,look at the modern gaming PC market and decided its not worth and just got a PS5/XBox and be done with it. Even a scalped console is cheaper than a brand new mainstream level dGPU which is even as fast as the console! Then you need to add on top all the other parts.

Its not even about whether you can afford it,but the fact that there are so many things people can spend their money on. If anything outside a few hardcore gamer/enthusiast mates I am literally seeing most people around me move away from PC gaming. I am not going to take my non-essential budget and put more of it towards a PC,when those hobbies are more interesting to me and probably are healthier too. I would rather go somewhere nice then spend £100s extra on a piece of overpriced PC electronics,with a finite lifespan.

Once things start moving back to normal,and people can travel more,etc I do honestly think people will rather do that,and we might find many who upgrade now will have simply pushed forward purchases because they had 5~10 year old PCs which needed replacement because they were stuck at home.

Plus for me I will see how this goes. Unless I end up with some financial windfall,etc and this nonsense market stays the same way in the next 3 years,I am done with this all. If people want to literally play the speculative market with dGPUs and CPUs,and get into debt paying idiotic prices for things then they can have it.

I will either get a console or use game streaming for cutting edge games,and use a laptop/old desktop for the older stuff which shouldn't need decent specs. That means less money spent on PCs,and more money diverted to other hobbies. AMD/Intel/Nvidia can go suck on one and target the whales/mugs who don't know any better.

I just feel lucky it seems I entered the hobby during its best days,and 20+ years is a good run I suppose!

[Percy1983]

Personally my PC is a work machine in photography/videography to which its always been a case of getting a better gpu than needed to turn it into a gaming machine too.

As an occasional gamer with a backlog of older games stepping down to a R9 290 hasn't been to bad and for work it has just meant running my second monitor at 30hz which hasn't been an issue.

But if I was only a gamer I would probably just shift back to console as its where my gaming started (last console bought is a 360).

It does appear we may be going to low sales high price model on GPUs which is so I will just keep running the minimum needed for work and when I eventually need more power for gaming get a console again, it would be a shame to kill the PC gaming industry but I don't think manufacturers of other components will be happy with the slowdown of sales in the long term.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Personally my PC is a work machine in photography/videography to which its always been a case of getting a better gpu than needed to turn it into a gaming machine too.

As an occasional gamer with a backlog of older games stepping down to a R9 290 hasn't been to bad and for work it has just meant running my second monitor at 30hz which hasn't been an issue.

But if I was only a gamer I would probably just shift back to console as its where my gaming started (last console bought is a 360).

It does appear we may be going to low sales high price model on GPUs which is so I will just keep running the minimum needed for work and when I eventually need more power for gaming get a console again, it would be a shame to kill the PC gaming industry but I don't think manufacturers of other components will be happy with the slowdown of sales in the long term.

It was the same reason why I got into building my own PCs. I have a deep interest in photography even going back nearly 20 years when I was doing my own negative scanning using a PC,but also wanted something compact. So it was the case of a building a portable SFF system,and then simply adding a decentish dGPU made it viable as a gaming system. I was a big Shuttle XPC fan.

However,increasingly laptops can do all of what I want,and stuff like what Apple is coming out with,despite the hype,would fill my non-gaming needs very well. What happens if the street price of the RTX4060/RX7600XT becomes £500+ then it doesn't make the upgrade path viable,especially as CPU prices are going up too. Sure you can sell what you have now,but its becoming a bit like speculating on the housing market.

[DanceswithUnix]

However,increasingly laptops can do all of what I want,and stuff like what Apple is coming out with,despite the hype,would fill my non-gaming needs very well.

I was going to say, the next gen AMD APUs having twice the GPU power of the current range does muddy the GPU market a tad at the lower end, so at least a basic gaming rig might be possible. Looking around for a cheap laptop for one of the kids, there seem to be plenty of 5000 series chips out there atm. I can get a 5300U based laptop for £330 (albeit it would need an SSD and RAM upgrade to be capable of more than Minecraft).

But then I see that Activision Blizzard becoming part of the Microsoft empire today... WoW on an XBox? I don't know if that is a strike for or against PC gaming, but $70B for a games company seems significant