News - AMD exec says NVIDIA neglecting gamers

[nightkhaos]

And the movie looks roughly like a multi-colored blob after being transcoded in such a poor manner.

Evidence please. I was thinking of paying for Badaboomit, something for my 295 to do apart from full HD play back and the occassion session of Crysis, but if the quality is such that it is not tolerance (my friend said he had no troubles when he used it on his 9800, however considering the intended output device was in fact an iPhone, the low resolution may have compensated for a poor output picture). Of course, after this debate, I'm thinking I might sell the card an buy a 5970, but I need money for that since I wouldn't be able to sell the 295 second hand for enough to pay for a 5970.

It's hard to be critical and objective now, so I haven't bothered posting. If we're going to get people who are clearly on the NVIDIA side of the fence (Yes Rollo, I'm looking at you), we have a problem, because the neutrals, such as myself, are either rendered mute or have to directly refute the statements made. A tiresome and trivial practice. Please provide some evidence to your claims, and I mean both sides here.

Before using a argumentum ad hominem tu quoque on me I think it is important to know I am aware that I am being slightly hypocritical in that I have made claims in this thread without prior evidence. I am by no means an arbitrator of this thread, but I do not want it reduced to personal attacks.

Furthermore, even if Rollo is hired by NVIDIA that does not make his points invalid. Using a argumentum ad hominem circumstantial is underhanded, and not the way to win this arguement, especially considering the subject matter is about underhanded tactics from NVIDIA in the first place. Attack the points he raises, not him as a person, or his history.

And yes, I am aware I am not a moderator here, and should not dictate policy, but if we actually want this issue resolved, a battle between sides on the forum isn't going to achieve anything. It's petty, and we should be above that. HEXUS is full of intelligent people, let's prove it by keeping this civil ha?

[Zhaoman]

Agreed dude, this thread is getting a bit out of hand. And back on topic: what are the chances of someone posting some real evidence soon? Is Lars or Richard going to comment on the issues that have consequently been raised by the exchange of emails?

[Disturbedguy]

Well said khaos, I have been following this thread and have to say that a large amount of the posts on the last few pages have been nothing but personal attacks. Hexus is supposed to be a civil place, will well mannered members who are able to conduct themselves properly and obide by the rules put in place by Hexus.

If a thread can't be created where members can discuss matter in a civil and respectful manner, then what is the point in Hexus creating such topics or bringing such items to discussion if it is just going to turn into personal attacks?

[mercyground]

You'd need to have integrity to sell it in the first place.

Burn and headshot.

And agreed. NV's integrity is definatly in question. A company treating its consumers like this will get backlash. Untill they sort their **** out... Why should I recommend them?

Its not just ONE incident. Its MANY and its not improving. The laptop issue sealed it for me. Fobbing off consumers. "Out of warrenty. So Sorry". Apple's little report was the most damming. Although i did love the Inqs coverage where they asked NV is it fixed. NV said yes. So they bought a macbook and sliced it open and sent it for analysis... and whoops. Its not fixed. Own goal again folks.

[mercyground]

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3475
GPU Transcoding Throwdown: Elemental's Badaboom vs. AMD's Avivo Video Converter

Badaboom 1.1 shows Elemental's commitment to the cause. Normally when I'm promised that things will get better, and that features will be added, they don't. Or if they do, they take a long time. It is now less than four months since we first previewed Badaboom and with version 1.1, much of what we asked for has been included. There's still a long way to go and Elemental still has the difficult tasks of matching the quality of established codecs like x264 and MainConcept, but these past two revisions of Badaboom prove one thing: Elemental is serious and willing to listen to feedback.

1. SLI must be disabled (if it is enabled) .
2. Each GPU needs to be connected to a display.
3. Each GPU must have a desktop enabled on it.

The biggest limitation I see is that the output file is relatively useless on a HTPC. While Badaboom can provide a quick and easy way to rip a Blu-ray to a smaller, more backup-friendly format, you do lose the ability to preserve the DD/DTS audio tracks. Forget about lossless 7.1 support, I’m just talking about maintaining basic DD/DTS 5.1 that your HTPC/receiver are already setup to play.

Badaboom obviously does very well with a fast GPU, but the CPU requirements are also reasonably high. Keeping the GeForce GTX 280 fed actually ate up 50% of the CPU power of our Core 2 Quad Q9450 in our tests, it seems that Badaboom won’t scale beyond two cores.

The problem is that Elemental and NVIDIA make the argument that using the GPU to transcode video frees up your CPU to do other tasks while you’re doing this. The reality is that this is only true if you’ve got four cores, otherwise your dual-core CPU is just as pegged as it would be if you were doing a CPU-based video transcode. The difference here being that the transcode is going a lot faster.

While NVIDIA wants you to spend less money on the CPU and put the savings towards a faster GPU, the correct approach continues to be buying a decent CPU and a decent GPU, even with GPU accelerated video encoding. If you’re going to be doing a lot of video encoding, a quad-core CPU is still a good idea regardless of whether you’re doing your encoding on the GPU or not.

Soooo... basically... its throw alot of horsepower at it and pray? Its not the slick affair promised. It wont properly backup dvd's to media files for HTPC (5.1 anyone?).

Sounds like horsepower wasted to me. And you want me to PAY for this? I'll keep waiting.

[nightkhaos]

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3475
GPU Transcoding Throwdown: Elemental's Badaboom vs. AMD's Avivo Video Converter

Soooo... basically... its throw alot of horsepower at it and pray? Its not the slick affair promised. It wont properly backup dvd's to media files for HTPC (5.1 anyone?).

Sounds like horsepower wasted to me. And you want me to PAY for this? I'll keep waiting.

Thank you. Seems like I'll need to find another tool for transcoding, I seem to recall someone recommending me another one on HEXUS, Handbrake I think it was called?

Burn and headshot.

And agreed. NV's integrity is definatly in question. A company treating its consumers like this will get backlash. Untill they sort their **** out... Why should I recommend them?

Its not just ONE incident. Its MANY and its not improving. The laptop issue sealed it for me. Fobbing off consumers. "Out of warrenty. So Sorry". Apple's little report was the most damming. Although i did love the Inqs coverage where they asked NV is it fixed. NV said yes. So they bought a macbook and sliced it open and sent it for analysis... and whoops. Its not fixed. Own goal again folks.

I can see a lot or articles about NVIDIA on the Inq, but not the particular one you mention. Can you recall what it was called and possibly a link to it, I'd be very curious to what they wrote.

[caveman-jim]

Burn and headshot

Fail.

I have found that while Rollo has a certain style to his posts he can back it up. I've known three focus group members (R.I.P. Joe) and they do not get told to further any of nVidia's agendas, that I can tell. They are enthusiasts who enjoy nVidia technology. I know Rollo and ChrisRay have purchased AMD hardware with their own money, so it's not like they only drink from one fountain. Both had said, and I'm sure will continue to say, good things about AMD ATi when appropriate.

Back to topic; there is really nothing more to be said about Batman AA until Eidos issues another statement or AMD makes a patch; nVidia has been clear on their position.

To the general topic of abandoning gamers, what AMD is doing here is demonstrating nVidia's focus on their gaming customers.

To some this will be seen as being at the expense of all gamers, and potential customers. It's possible that some will only buy nVidia hardware from now on. It's possible that some will refuse to. This polarization is IMO bad for the industry as it creates shcisms and shrinks markets, capping growth for all involved.

nVidia and Eidos have IMO picked a poor road to travel down, and are making decisions based on cross-licensing and revenue bottom lines instead of consumer experience and value. This is a perfectly acceptable business practice, but if you have the choice to use a solution that doesn't restrict your market (especially in Eidos' case) why not go the most open way? Become a leader and driving force and the mind-share and goodwill will repay itself in sales.

nVidia could be getting major props from the community by 'magnanimously' allowing their AA implementation code to be used by ATi cards. They are choosing to protect their brand instead. This is detrimental to non-nVidia customers. Why should nVidia care about non-nVidia customers? Because one day they might want them to become nVidia customers, and this might leave a bad taste in their mouth.

[caveman-jim]

Thank you. Seems like I'll need to find another tool for transcoding, I seem to recall someone recommending me another one on HEXUS, Handbrake I think it was called?

Good alternatives are SuperC (free) and Cyberlink's Mediashow Espresso (uses ATi STREAM and nVidia CUDA to accelerate the transcode as well as CPU). It's typically a lot faster than CPU only (SuperC) and I can't tell the difference in quality.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

If a thread can't be created where members can discuss matter in a civil and respectful manner, then what is the point in Hexus creating such topics or bringing such items to discussion if it is just going to turn into personal attacks?

Sadly,many people can only justify recommendations based on what they own even if new products have been launched with better technology and better value for money from other companies. In the end they resort to pseudo-logic or just plain BS to justify their own faith in the companies they have bought products from. This is since they consider anyone making another choice a personal attack as it means that they are not right all the time.

This is why you have fanbois.

[nightkhaos]

Good alternatives are SuperC (free) and Cyberlink's Mediashow Espresso (uses ATi STREAM and nVidia CUDA to accelerate the transcode as well as CPU). It's typically a lot faster than CPU only (SuperC) and I can't tell the difference in quality.

Thanks, I will also include these for consideration. The purpose is to find a way to make the WTV files I get from recordings compressed a little better, with something like H264 and AAC.

[nightkhaos]

Sadly,many people can only justify recommendations based on what they own even if new products have been launched with better technology and better value for money from other companies. In the end they resort to pseudo-logic or just plain BS to justify their own faith in the companies they have bought products from. This is since they consider anyone making another choice a personal attack as it means that they are not right all the time.

This is why you have fanbois.

It's human nature, people do not want to admit mistakes. It's hard to admit that you shouldn't have bought that particular kit. There is also ignorance, you have a good product you enjoy, and then someone attacks it and says an unknown, to you, is better. You will react to that, because you do not want to admit your ignorance. I used to catch myself doing this whenever someone recommended an AMD CPU over an Intel one, now I have learned that I cannot know everything, and provided the facts someone provides are solid, I will back them.

The challenge is to be aware of this reaction, if you can do that, you can be neutral and objective. A skill we all need to learn now, as the amount of information in the world is increasing at an exponential rate. We cannot expect to know everything, even in our chosen career field or vested interests like our hobbies.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Fail.

I have found that while Rollo has a certain style to his posts he can back it up. I've known three focus group members (R.I.P. Joe) and they do not get told to further any of nVidia's agendas, that I can tell. They are enthusiasts who enjoy nVidia technology. I know Rollo and ChrisRay have purchased AMD hardware with their own money, so it's not like they only drink from one fountain. Both had said, and I'm sure will continue to say, good things about AMD ATi when appropriate.

So what?? I have owned more(and hence spent more) on Nvidia cards than ATI cards but some of the posts here are bordering on the fanboi level.

[mercyground]

Thank you. Seems like I'll need to find another tool for transcoding, I seem to recall someone recommending me another one on HEXUS, Handbrake I think it was called?

Well if you are going to transcode then it should do it properly and support DivX and H264.

I can see a lot or articles about NVIDIA on the Inq, but not the particular one you mention. Can you recall what it was called and possibly a link to it, I'd be very curious to what they wrote.

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...ros-nvidia-bad

It was there and it was a complete breakdown of the chip and analysis. I've tried a quick google for a cached copy but its not there.

:edit: it is posted here however http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...dia_chips.html

The Too Long Didnt Read of it is this.

There is suppose to be a flexible layer on the chip which helps absorb the stresses of heat and flex from the substrate that the silicon is bonded to. NV SKIPPED this layer. This combined with a lower thermal melting point solder means that either solder melted and chip debonded, or the chip flexed and cracked off the substrate causing failure. The fact that the thermal enclosure was too low for the chip (NV changed the TDP for the chip at a late stage due to not being able to hit clockspeeds and thus pumped up the voltage to satisfy this).

Its a horrible engineering cascade. That was the first issue. NV then claimed they had fixed it by changing the substrate/fill layer. The analysis they did proved the the layer was the same layer that was originally there and only on some chips were they using the new layer.

Basically there was ZERO guarentee your MacBook would survive past 2yrs. (They tested the macbook as it was claimed this was fixed. Other laptops are at risk)

Under UK law that is a manufacturers defect and thus you could get your machine replaced/fixed as its not fit for purpose if it failed outside of warrenty. Alot of people were getting fobbed off with "out of warrenty".

Yes NV put asside money for it. No they DID NOT inform consumers in time. Yes there was a long lead time before OEM's were properly informed.

It stank of sweeping it under the rug. It was very poor customer relations and from what i read it looks like the OEM's were left in the cold too. Apple has a VERY snotty tech report that pretty much states NV lied to them.

The other issue is how it fails. As the heat build up "kills the laptop" it affects it in odd ways. Your first signs of issues is the internal wireless "dropping" out. Its because the bridge chip that controls this is right next to the GPU and suffers as the heat builds up. Eventually wireless dies and shortly afterwards the GPU too.

So too hot a chip in too small a thermal enclosure and a poorly manufacturered chip with zero thermal stress toleranaces. And for the unbelievers? Go check the bios sites of OEM laptops with NV cards in them. "Thermal fan performance changes" - read as run the fan to try keep the damn thing cool till its out of warrenty.

[mercyground]

It's human nature, people do not want to admit mistakes. It's hard to admit that you shouldn't have bought that particular kit. There is also ignorance, you have a good product you enjoy, and then someone attacks it and says an unknown, to you, is better. You will react to that, because you do not want to admit your ignorance. I used to catch myself doing this whenever someone recommended an AMD CPU over an Intel one, now I have learned that I cannot know everything, and provided the facts someone provides are solid, I will back them.

The challenge is to be aware of this reaction, if you can do that, you can be neutral and objective. A skill we all need to learn now, as the amount of information in the world is increasing at an exponential rate. We cannot expect to know everything, even in our chosen career field or vested interests like our hobbies.

nods.

Alot of people want bang for buck with the current economy. Others want power. Others just want enough power.

I honestly laugh at people who buy the top range and then dont use it. Its like buying a ferrari and then just poping down the shop in it. "Look at me!"

AMD's Phenom II's rock. So does Intel's I range. It comes down to money. Its less of a gap now that AMD is using DDR3 but there is still some killer bargins out there. For dirt cheap you can get a dual core with 4gb of ddr2 and mb for pocket change and for people who just want something midrange thats all you want.

I personally think the i7 range is overpriced. I like the i5 but its still pushing it. the Phenoms are tasty for cost/performance.

I love the ATI cards. Damn good performance for sensible prices. NV's 600quid GFX cards were insane. There is ZERO chance of me paying anything over 200quid for a GFX card. And to be bluntly honest most people i know dont run higher than a 21inch screen. a 4850 or a 9800 is fine for that kind of size of screen. Only once you start hitting 30inch screens do you need top end power. Its daft to pay for that.

I've used both Intel and AMD cpus, same for gfx cards. I hated the P4 when it came out. My p3 crushed it. (My boss stole my new p4 and gave me his old p3. How he bitched when my machine outperformed his).

Intel did screw up with the p4s. Banias and thus the Core range saved their bacon.

Question is... What will save NV;s bacon... Cos i'm pretty damn sure that Fermi is not the answer.

[mercyground]

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...dia_chips.html

Found a copy. Its up there.

http://support.apple.com/kb/TS2377

Symptoms

In July 2008, NVIDIA publicly acknowledged a higher than normal failure rate for some of their graphics processors due to a packaging defect. At that same time, NVIDIA assured Apple that Mac computers with these graphics processors were not affected. However, after an Apple-led investigation, Apple has determined that some MacBook Pro computers with the NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT graphics processor may be affected. If the NVIDIA graphics processor in your MacBook Pro has failed, or fails within three years of the original date of purchase, a repair will be done free of charge, even if your MacBook Pro is out of warranty.

[Rollo]

nods.

Alot of people want bang for buck with the current economy. Others want power. Others just want enough power.

I honestly laugh at people who buy the top range and then dont use it. Its like buying a ferrari and then just poping down the shop in it. "Look at me!"

You "laugh" at people who buy nice things? Interesting coping mechanism.

AMD's Phenom II's rock. So does Intel's I range. It comes down to money. Its less of a gap now that AMD is using DDR3 but there is still some killer bargins out there. For dirt cheap you can get a dual core with 4gb of ddr2 and mb for pocket change and for people who just want something midrange thats all you want.

I personally think the i7 range is overpriced. I like the i5 but its still pushing it. the Phenoms are tasty for cost/performance.

Listen, I like AMD too, and have an Athlon X2 in the laptop I'm typing this on, and a Phenom II 940BE in one of my rigs. However; this is because I bought a i7 965 when they came out for my main rig and i can afford to dick around with second tier stuff to toss some support AMDs way for competitions sake. However; no one has any real reason to buy an AMD cpu these days. Besides the fact they are clock for clock slower at dual and quad core, they have no hyperthreading, and their motherboards aren't up to Intel standards. Not to mention they lock you into Crossfire for multicard and with Intel you can buy whatever is better- CF or SLi.

I love the ATI cards. Damn good performance for sensible prices. NV's 600quid GFX cards were insane. There is ZERO chance of me paying anything over 200quid for a GFX card. And to be bluntly honest most people i know dont run higher than a 21inch screen. a 4850 or a 9800 is fine for that kind of size of screen. Only once you start hitting 30inch screens do you need top end power. Its daft to pay for that.

Except for one thing: gaming on a 30" 25X16 monitor is about 800X better than gaming on a 21" 16X10 monitor. It fills your field of vision, resolution is almost double- everything is bigger and sharper. Not to mention all the 30" panels I've heard of are very high quality displays. Why is it "daft" if you can easily afford it? I wrote the check for $1200 w/o a second thought.

I've used both Intel and AMD cpus, same for gfx cards. I hated the P4 when it came out. My p3 crushed it. (My boss stole my new p4 and gave me his old p3. How he bitched when my machine outperformed his).

Intel did screw up with the p4s. Banias and thus the Core range saved their bacon.

Question is... What will save NV;s bacon... Cos i'm pretty damn sure that Fermi is not the answer.

I don't think anyone needs to "save NVIDIA":

http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2009/11/05/4466646.htm

NVIDIA is making millions, while AMD loses millions, and NVIDIA has no debt. (compared to AMD's $5 billion in debt)

Who's going to save AMD? The 58XX line is very good, but remember AMD is a much larger company than ATi- they can't survive on half the computer gaming market.