News - Apple denies smokers' warranties

[TAKTAK]

I've seen hundreds of other comments across the web regarding this debate (Apple denying the warranty due to cigarette smoke) and most are in agreement with Apple being in the right.

Were they all yours?...

[Pob255]

You mean dust, right?

Cigarette smoke is benign to electronics. You'd need to smoke with 10 fags in your gob, non-stop, in a tiny box room for more than 5 years for enough tar to build up around the HSF to kill a laptop.

Yes and no.

Being a smoker myself I know the effects esp on the very small gaps you can get between the fins of a heatpipe heatsink (like the types in laptops)

Try cleaning them out, you'll find normal dust while it builds up into visabably solid lumps is still a fine powder in nature and is easily lossened and blown away.
The problem with cigarette smoke is the tar not the nicotine, clean out the heat sink in a pc in a room which people smoke in, you find that dust build up is "sticky" it'll not shift as easily.
One of the reasons I don't smoke in the room my pc is in now is I got fed up of having to remove my heatsinks to wash them in warm water to get all the gunk out.
It didn't used to be so bad as heatsinks where more chunky with larger gaps between fins but the gaps are far smaller on newer heatsinks (to get more fins in) and makes it worse.

(strangely enough in the home ec room of the school I work in, I have the exact same issue, although that's from cooking fat in the air making "sticky" dust)

That said the thing about it being a "health hazzard" to workers to repair is utter
While the residue is carcinogenic the amounts involved and level of expoiser is far too low to pose any real threat.
The grease and grime left behind on a keyboard from a users fingers make the keyboard a bigger biological risk than the amount of carcinogens left from smoke.

[12GaugeShotty]

oh i am sure you have

Were they all yours?...

The both of you can't possibly be that naive to think that Hexus found the news about this first?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...warranty+smoke

Here's another UK website with plenty of comments. Read up!

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardwar...e-warranties/1

[Knoxville]

You quoted me and didn't even pay attention to what I said. A broken laptop from a smoker will have the same chemicals and tar that is found in a smoker's lung. I am not preaching the health factors of smoking but what is in the smoke of a lit cigarette.

It's not zero hand smoke. It is in fact second hand smoke. The difference between what is in a smoker's lungs (black nasty tar and disease) is that it is concentrated because they inhale a significant part every time they take a drag. After that the cigarette is still lit and poisonous chemicals are still coming from it. The smoke doesn't just stop. So that (actual) second hand smoke is drawn into the laptop/PC by the system fans which will circulate the harmful chemicals - coating the interior with the same crap that you see in a smoker's lung. The worst part is that actually smoking a cigarette uses a filter. Second hand smoke doesn't have that at all so that is additional poisonous chemical exposure.

Lint clogged PC? That's just dust particles in the air. Big difference between that and cigarette smoke. Honestly, that's a pathetic comparison.

You are aware that the damage done to smokers lungs occurs because they are organic matter that absorbs whatever is inhaled aren't you? If I exhale cigarette smoke on to a piece of stainless steel it won't absorb any of the nasty harmful chemicals my lungs do because it's a completely different material with completely different properties. Lungs absorb whatever is inhaled which is why they end up coated with crap if you smoke, to say a piece of steel/plastic/pcb has the same ability to absorb and store nasty chemicals as your lungs without any source to back it up is absurd. To call it second hand smoke is ridiculous as well as given any reasonable length of time what was smoke will dissipate into the atmosphere around it and dissapear, someone standing in the same bus stop I had a fag under six hours ago won't be breathing in any second hand smoke and nor will an apple engineer opening a laptop that's spent the last week in and out of DHL warehouses because the smoke just won't be there any more, unless of course I smoke a cigarette into the case itself and seal it in a fashion that allows absolutely nothing to escape and that's not really something any sane person does before they send something off for repair is it?

What you smell when you open a smokers pc case isn't second hand smoke that's been swirling around for months with nowhere to go, it's the same dust and lint you'd find in any other case, it just smells bad and while that may not be the nicest thing in the world it's probably no more harmful than inhaling any other dust from any other home. If you'd like to provide quantifiable evidence that the chemicals exhaled in cigarette smoke have a long enough half life to lie dormant in metals and affect people weeks later I'll happily sit here and eat humble pie but to use the effects of second hand smoke on humans that live or work around smokers as an example of how a piece of electronic equipment in a similar environment could be affected is pointless, has no scientific merit and is, as you so eloquently put it in response to someone elses post, a pathetic comparison.

As has already been said in this thread I would suppose that this move has more to do with Californian companies stance on smoking and saving a few quid here and there on warranty repairs than it does the actual possibility that a member of the Apple workforce will somehow contract lung cancer from working on a smokers laptop.

To sum up, prove to me that somehow the chemicals are present in a computer as they would be in a smokers lungs after exposure to cigarette smoke or change the record mate because frankly it's getting old. You may not like the smell of cigarettes (I admit it isn't nice at all) and you may choose not to work on pc's in your spare time that are owned by smokers, that's you're decision. But for a company to refuse to perform repair work under warranty for the same reasons is unacceptable, especially as I bet there's no mention of cigarette smoke in any but the most recent of Apple warranty agreements.

[12GaugeShotty]

You are aware that the damage done to smokers lungs occurs because they are organic matter that absorbs whatever is inhaled aren't you? If I exhale cigarette smoke on to a piece of stainless steel it won't absorb any of the nasty harmful chemicals my lungs do because it's a completely different material with completely different properties. Lungs absorb whatever is inhaled which is why they end up coated with crap if you smoke, to say a piece of steel/plastic/pcb has the same ability to absorb and store nasty chemicals as your lungs without any source to back it up is absurd. To call it second hand smoke is ridiculous as well as given any reasonable length of time what was smoke will dissipate into the atmosphere around it and dissapear, someone standing in the same bus stop I had a fag under six hours ago won't be breathing in any second hand smoke and nor will an apple engineer opening a laptop that's spent the last week in and out of DHL warehouses because the smoke just won't be there any more, unless of course I smoke a cigarette into the case itself and seal it in a fashion that allows absolutely nothing to escape and that's not really something any sane person does before they send something off for repair is it?

What you smell when you open a smokers pc case isn't second hand smoke that's been swirling around for months with nowhere to go, it's the same dust and lint you'd find in any other case, it just smells bad and while that may not be the nicest thing in the world it's probably no more harmful than inhaling any other dust from any other home. If you'd like to provide quantifiable evidence that the chemicals exhaled in cigarette smoke have a long enough half life to lie dormant in metals and affect people weeks later I'll happily sit here and eat humble pie but to use the effects of second hand smoke on humans that live or work around smokers as an example of how a piece of electronic equipment in a similar environment could be affected is pointless, has no scientific merit and is, as you so eloquently put it in response to someone elses post, a pathetic comparison.

As has already been said in this thread I would suppose that this move has more to do with Californian companies stance on smoking and saving a few quid here and there on warranty repairs than it does the actual possibility that a member of the Apple workforce will somehow contract lung cancer from working on a smokers laptop.

To sum up, prove to me that somehow the chemicals are present in a computer as they would be in a smokers lungs after exposure to cigarette smoke or change the record mate because frankly it's getting old. You may not like the smell of cigarettes (I admit it isn't nice at all) and you may choose not to work on pc's in your spare time that are owned by smokers, that's you're decision. But for a company to refuse to perform repair work under warranty for the same reasons is unacceptable, especially as I bet there's no mention of cigarette smoke in any but the most recent of Apple warranty agreements.

It is acceptable. Read the warranty that I already referred to.

http://store.apple.com/Catalog/irl/I...ewarranty.html

This warranty does not apply: (a) to damage caused by use with non-Apple products; (b) to damage caused by accident, abuse, misuse, flood, fire, earthquake or other external causes; (c) to damage caused by operating the product outside the permitted or intended uses described by Apple; (d) to damage caused by service (including upgrades and expansions) performed by anyone who is not a representative of Apple or an Apple Authorised Service Provider; (e) to a product or part that has been modified to significantly alter functionality or capability without the written permission of Apple; (f) to consumable parts, such as batteries, unless damage has occurred due to a defect in materials or workmanship; or (g) if any Apple serial number has been removed or defaced.

Seems perfectly acceptable to me. People at bit-tech agreed.

[Knoxville]

The phrase "other external causes" really doesn't cover it does it? Reminds me of the the phrase "acts of god" with regards to insurance policies.... it doesn't sound like it covers anything specific, more that it's just an easy way out of repairing systems the user can't prove failed because of a manufacturing error. If you were to argue it comes under "abuse/misuse" I'd disagree as well given I know a lot of people that use Apple products in a live music environment where they'd be subject to high humidity and smoke machines and Apple have often advertised their products as tools for musicians and the like. It may be acceptable from a legal standpoint, I doubt Apple would have made this move unless it was, but as far as common sense and customer service is concerned it's still just as unacceptable to me, even more so now that I know it's not mentioned specifically in the warranty agreement.

[12GaugeShotty]

The phrase "other external causes" really doesn't cover it does it? Reminds me of the the phrase "acts of god" with regards to insurance policies.... it doesn't sound like it covers anything specific, more that it's just an easy way out of repairing systems the user can't prove failed because of a manufacturing error. If you were to argue it comes under "abuse/misuse" I'd disagree as well given I know a lot of people that use Apple products in a live music environment where they'd be subject to high humidity and smoke machines and Apple have often advertised their products as tools for musicians and the like. It may be acceptable from a legal standpoint, I doubt Apple would have made this move unless it was, but as far as common sense and customer service is concerned it's still just as unacceptable to me, even more so now that I know it's not mentioned specifically in the warranty agreement.

Is cigarette smoke an external substance not normally found on the inside of a laptop?

I already know from personal experience and what I have seen on how people treat laptops. They seem to think they are just keyboards with monitors and have no comprehension not to eat/drink around them, that they aren't something your kids can jump up and down on, that you can't just throw them in the back of the car like they are luggage, that you can't drop them over and over without some sort of consequence.

High humidity and smoke machines? Are you serious? No computer component, Apple or not, should be exposed to either. I know that Panasonic makes their Toughbook series computers. Those are better suited because they are designed for punishment.

http://www.panasonic.com/business/To...-computers.asp

Tools for musicians maybe...inside a studio and not at a rock concert.

[aidanjt]

Is cigarette smoke an external substance not normally found on the inside of a laptop?

By that same argument, dust is an external substance not normally found on the inside of a laptop.

[Knoxville]

High humidity and smoke machines? Are you serious? No computer component, Apple or not, should be exposed to either. I know that Panasonic makes their Toughbook series computers. Those are better suited because they are designed for punishment.

http://www.panasonic.com/business/To...-computers.asp

Tools for musicians maybe...inside a studio and not at a rock concert.

Am I serious? Have you ever been in a studio with five other guys doing pre-production all day? Obviously not. It may not be a "rock concert" but it's a highly humid environment and one that I have seen first hand advertised as one of the possible ways in which to use your laptop equipped with garageband/logic. You can't create a tool for musicians, advertise it as such and expect them not to use it in every aspect of what they do musically, be it a live show, recording in the studio or just learning to play guitar at home, it'd be nothing but naive to do so, simple as.

By that same argument, dust is an external substance not normally found on the inside of a laptop.

Exactly, where does it stop? Will exposing my laptop to an environment with anything more than exactly 78.08% nitrogen void my warranty as well? If you create a product designed to be portable from the outset and market it as a tool everyone can use everywhere in their life you damn sure better be willing to offer appropriate support for said product.

[12GaugeShotty]

By that same argument, dust is an external substance not normally found on the inside of a laptop.

Dust is in the air. It would be considered normal use. Cigarette smoke in excess amount due to constant exposure is not normal.

Am I serious? Have you ever been in a studio with five other guys doing pre-production all day? Obviously not. It may not be a "rock concert" but it's a highly humid environment and one that I have seen first hand advertised as one of the possible ways in which to use your laptop equipped with garageband/logic. You can't create a tool for musicians, advertise it as such and expect them not to use it in every aspect of what they do musically, be it a live show, recording in the studio or just learning to play guitar at home, it'd be nothing but naive to do so, simple as.

Being in a room with a bunch of people isn't humid. I understand what you are saying...but that's not a high humidity environment. Being in a rain forest, that is a high humidity environment.

Exactly, where does it stop? Will exposing my laptop to an environment with anything more than exactly 78.08% nitrogen void my warranty as well? If you create a product designed to be portable from the outset and market it as a tool everyone can use everywhere in their life you damn sure better be willing to offer appropriate support for said product.

No, it's not "exactly". Dust is in the air. You cannot help it. Cigarette smoke is not a normal substance in concentrated amounts in the air. Really though, this debate has been overwith a few posts ago. Argue semantics all you want. It's Apple's choice to void the warranty and they did.

[MadduckUK]

Dust is in the air.

are you saying that skin cells are a natural part of air?

[12GaugeShotty]

are you saying that skin cells are a natural part of air?

Do you comb your hair? Do you walk around? There is a difference between dust in a basement and dust in a living room but dust is in fact there. Just lower particles per cc of air.

Now I am sure you are going to debate this and that humans breathe it (dust, skin cells, etc) in. That's where the respiratory system comes into play by filtering these particles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_system

Come on people, I learned this crap in science class in school decades ago.

[aidanjt]

Dust is in the air. It would be considered normal use. Cigarette smoke in excess amount due to constant exposure is not normal.

Dust is still not what you'd normally find in a laptop fresh off the assembly line. Dust clogs up heatsinks and damages thermal management systems. By your own argument, dust is every bit (and more) damaging than cigarette smoke. Therefore it should be reasonable for laptop manufacturers to have a warranty clause which says that the manufacturer doesn't have to honour any warranty on laptops used outside a cleanroom.

[Knoxville]

The lengths to which you'll go to undermine the arguments of those with a different opinion to you... A few posts ago....

...I know a lot of people that use Apple products in a live music environment where they'd be subject to high humidity and smoke machines and Apple have often advertised their products as tools for musicians and the like. It may be acceptable from a legal standpoint, I doubt Apple would have made this move unless it was, but as far as common sense and customer service is concerned it's still just as unacceptable to me, even more so now that I know it's not mentioned specifically in the warranty agreement.

High humidity and smoke machines? Are you serious? No computer component, Apple or not, should be exposed to either. I know that Panasonic makes their Toughbook series computers. Those are better suited because they are designed for punishment.

http://www.panasonic.com/business/To...-computers.asp

Tools for musicians maybe...inside a studio and not at a rock concert.

.....you were only too quick to slap me down, then a few posts later...

Being in a room with a bunch of people isn't humid. I understand what you are saying...but that's not a high humidity environment. Being in a rain forest, that is a high humidity environment.

Why contradict yourself like that? First a live music venue or humid practice space is no place for a laptop or computer and then it's not one at all.....right...

No, it's not "exactly". Dust is in the air. You cannot help it. Cigarette smoke is not a normal substance in concentrated amounts in the air. Really though, this debate has been overwith a few posts ago. Argue semantics all you want. It's Apple's choice to void the warranty and they did.

It's clear you're not here for any kind of reasonable debate, if you were you'd be a little more open to the views of others. What happens when Apple say "our equipment is so delicate you should ensure a dust free environment for it" because you can, it's not beyond the realm of what's possible, what if they refuse to work on any computer that's been within twenty feet of a busy road because of the possibilty of carbon monoxide build up inside it over long periods of time? It never ends once you get started down that road.

If a piece of equipment fails because of a fault it left the factory with, whether I've smoked near it, used it to DJ in a basement club or left it in the garage with the car running for no good reason it should be fixed under warranty provided the failure occurs within the period covered by said warranty. It really doesn't get much more simple than that, especially if you market the equipment as portable and useable in many different situations. I know Apple and other companies have to cover their ass against accidental damage etc etc. But it's downright ridiculous to assume cigarette smoke could be the cause of a hardware failure on it's own and as a result I think it's downright ridiculous that they can refuse to carry out work on machines on the basis they've been used by someone that smokes.

Apple may have made their decision, but that doesn't meen the debate's over.

[12GaugeShotty]

Sorry you guys. I didn't even read your posts. I am done with this, really. No need to continue because it's a waste of time.

[aidanjt]

Somehow I doubt you were reading them to begin with.