QOTW: How do you feel after the EU referendum?

[Noxvayl]

Bye, close the door on your way out. Insulting my homeland is your way of commenting on the referendum? And you wonder why people want to put a stop to uncontrolled migration because people like yourself admit to not liking the UK but was quite willing to use it to better yourself. Typical!

FYI, the rest of the world dislikes your homeland as well... get used to it.

Oh and how has your family contributed to the British government? My grandfather helped build the railways of Southern Africa, as a British subject. Fought in the Boer wars as well. Is African history and your countries role in it not part of your education?

I think allowing me to immigrate, then go to university by paying for it with a loan is the very least this country can do in return.

I won't close the door on my way out, it isn't your house but mine as well. This referendum informed my preference for living within societies that are far more friendly.

[excalibur2]

FYI, the rest of the world dislikes your homeland as well... get used to it.

Oh and how has your family contributed to the British government? My grandfather helped build the railways of Southern Africa, as a British subject. Fought in the Boer wars as well. Is African history and your countries role in it not part of your education?

I think allowing me to immigrate, then go to university by paying for it with a loan is the very least this country can do in return.

I won't close the door on my way out, it isn't your house but mine as well. This referendum informed my preference for living within societies that are far more friendly.

Good Lord if you are going back in history we should be claiming compensation from Norway for what the Vikings did in the British Isles.

[wazzickle]

yeah and handily skip over the wanton death and economic destruction that we wreaked on the world between the 16th and 19th centuries.

the vikings bettered our bloodstream. we'd be nowhere without them. well, i mean, we wouldn't have had the cultural desire to conquer the rest of the world so would just be another subjugated nation. or, in other words..... IMMIGRATION

[Noxvayl]

Good Lord if you are going back in history we should be claiming compensation from Norway for what the Vikings did in the British Isles.

And what about the compensation that Greece claimed from the German government? Same level of history I'm talking about, within the generation of people that are currently living... You should thank the vikings for their good genes, especially if you have blue eyes. Scale is important.

Anyway... perhaps it best not to remind people of the past, it seems a lot more troubled in Europe and we have more history yet to come

[peterb]

Harrumph... Putting on a moderators hat (tricky when I've taken part in the discussion) but please let's not this degenerate into personal attacks. Stating ones origins may be a perfectly acceptable way to explain ones particular point of view (particularly as forums are anonymous from that point of view) but that should not open the poster to abuse on the basis of their origins - so let's not have anymore comments of that type please.

I know passions are running high, and I have made due allowance for that - but please don't let those passions over-ride normal HEXUS standards of debate.

[Ironbuket]

The only intelligent comments I’ve seen on Brexit are the people saying that the vote is done and trying to undo it or the many other arguments to make it void (e.g. old people shouldn’t vote) is undemocratic. Anyone for a turnover of the vote is supporting one of the main reasons most people voted leave (loss of democratic power to make our own choices). Anyone implying that brexit voters are stupid or racist is themselves by making such a generalisation. The vote is done, lets just get on with the brexit.

[Noxvayl]

Anyone implying that brexit voters are stupid or racist is themselves by making such a generalisation.

Disagree. Generalisations are useful to a point, but lets not conflate the pointing to and dislike of nationalist fervour for racism.

The vote is done, lets just get on with the brexit.

Indeed, it is best for everyone to move swiftly on from this... but we are woefully unprepared. That is part of the frustration for the 48% of us that find this referendum highly annoying in almost every regard.

[Corky34]

The only intelligent comments I’ve seen on Brexit are the people saying that the vote is done and trying to undo it or the many other arguments to make it void (e.g. old people shouldn’t vote) is undemocratic. Anyone for a turnover of the vote is supporting one of the main reasons most people voted leave (loss of democratic power to make our own choices).

And yet we get no say in who our next PM is going to be or what type of relationship the countries going to have with the EU, to me that seems more undemocratic than rerunning the referendum but this time around not allowing democracy to be subverted with misleading information and near outright lies (from both sides), a well-informed electorate is a prerequisite for democracy and the electorate was fed misinformation (again from both sides).

Anyone implying that brexit voters are stupid or racist is themselves by making such a generalisation. The vote is done, lets just get on with the brexit.

Well based on last nights panorama I'd say those generalisations are well founded, either panorama or Adrian Chiles painted leave voters in a very poor light IMO.

[jigger]

The only intelligent comments I’ve seen on Brexit are the people saying that the vote is done and trying to undo it or the many other arguments to make it void (e.g. old people shouldn’t vote) is undemocratic. Anyone for a turnover of the vote is supporting one of the main reasons most people voted leave (loss of democratic power to make our own choices). Anyone implying that brexit voters are stupid or racist is themselves by making such a generalisation. The vote is done, lets just get on with the brexit.

It's not that simple. We're not voting for who runs the UK for the next four years, this is a long term decision that might ultimately see the collapse of the UK and show just how woefully unprepared we are for whats to come. I think we must be open to debate and the country 100% certain we are making the best choice for the UK. If that requires a generally election then so be it.

[crossy]

And yet we get no say in who our next PM is going to be or what type of relationship the countries going to have with the EU, to me that seems more undemocratic than rerunning the referendum but this time around not allowing democracy to be subverted with misleading information and near outright lies (from both sides), a well-informed electorate is a prerequisite for democracy and the electorate was fed misinformation (again from both sides).

It's not that simple. We're not voting for who runs the UK for the next four years, this is a long term decision that might ultimately see the collapse of the UK and show just how woefully unprepared we are for whats to come. I think we must be open to debate and the country 100% certain we are making the best choice for the UK. If that requires a generally election then so be it.

Good points both - funnily enough, (based on my very unscientific survey), 100% of the Leave folks I asked are now of the opinion that they would have voted the other way - basing their original (maybe not the best way to put it, but I'm sure you understand) vote on promises which Gove, Farage and Johnson backtracked on pretty sharpish post-vote. Also while the victors are loudly exclaiming that "democracy must be respected" what about the component nations such as Scotland and NI who overwhelmingly voted to stay - I can see the point of the SNP etc that if EU democracy is a remote and unrepresentative sham then perhaps those self-same opinions may hold water for Westminister.

Jigger's point is also a good one - it seems likely that the Tories will lurch further to the right, so it is perhaps valid to suggest that the government that was elected last year is distinctly different from "this year's model" and that a reaffirmation of the mandate is needed.

I dare say that some will see my views as more Brussels-appeasing sour grapes, but at this point I careth not...

... besides I live in Scotland, which is more and more likely to go it's own way in the foreseeable future.

[realstock]

Let me get my big wooden spoon out, because we seem to be losing some traction here....

Indeed, it is best for everyone to move swiftly on from this... but we are woefully unprepared.

Agreed, but that is no reason to 'go with the flow' because we are scared of what the future might bring, and no politician has told the electorate in black and white what the outcome will be.... no one knows!

a well-informed electorate is a prerequisite for democracy

Wrong! Age and nationality of the UK is a prerequisite, intelligence and being well informed do not count for diddly. Lets not be blind to think that only the mentally challenged voted leave, as is common judgement from all remainers, with 16 million voting remain you can be sure you had your fair share.

yet we get no say in who our next PM is going to be

But under normal circumstances we would vote for a party with the party leader positioned to be the PM.

based on last nights panorama I'd say those generalisations are well founded, either panorama or Adrian Chiles painted leave voters in a very poor light IMO.

If you tried for a second to put yourself in the shoes of the average leave voters in the north, who can't find a job because immigrants are doing it for half the price, who can't find a council house, because the immigrants are first in line, struggle to get a doctors appointment etc etc. In that particular Panorama episode it featured father cannot provide for his family because the line of work he is trained in, is swamped by immigrants. Rather than branding them stupid or racist, how about you have some compassion for your fellow Britain's.

100% of the Leave folks I asked are now of the opinion that they would have voted the other way

All the people I know that voted leave are still adamant that they would vote the same way.

This topic is toxic to say the least and I thought the apple vs andriod rivalry was bad.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/...y-come-8197510

Thousands of migrants have flocked to the North in search a new place to live - but their origins could surprise you.

Migrants who have chosen to make the region their home are most likely to come from Libya, Australia, America, and China - and not from Europe, we can reveal.

The truth of the North’s immigrant population is laid out just days after prime minister David Cameron announced a major crackdown on migrants from the European Union - vowing that European immigrants will have to wait four years until they are able to start claiming benefits and will have to find a job here within six months.

Our figures, based on data from the 2011 census, show that the region is most popular with migrants from across the world rather than eastern European countries.

And some of the countries the new arrivals call home are surprising - with lots of Aussies heading to Northumberland, Libyans in Middlesbrough, Spaniards in North Tyneside, Redcar and Stockton, and Americans in County Durham.

Blyth MP Ronnie Campbell said claims about rocketing immigration in the region are greatly exaggerated.

He said: “It’s a farce. In this area we don’t have the big immigration issue that you have in some of the bigger cities like London and Birmingham.

“They have got problems with immigration and the effect on social services, but not up here. These claims are over exaggerated.”

The region as a whole has fewer immigrants than the national average, according to the 2011 data.

In Teesside, less than 3,000 immigrants moved to Middlesbrough, Stockton and Redcar and Cleveland from abroad in the year leading up to the census.

It means that there were just 5.5 immigrants for every 1,000 people in the area - less than half the English average of 11.3.

In Tyneside and Northumberland, immigration was also far below the national average - coming in at just 6.9 immigrants for every 1,000 residents.

However in Newcastle, levels of immigration were above average, with 20 migrants for every 1,000 people in the city.

In Middlesbrough, the greatest number of immigrants came from Libya, at 145, while Spaniards were the most likely to have moved to Redcar and Cleveland and Stockton areas in 2011.

Newcastle is the UK city that Vietnamese people are most likely to choose as their new home, according to the data, which analysed the number of people whose addresses had changed in the year of the 2011 census.

But it is Chinese migrants who make up the the largest chunk of the city’s immigrant population, with almost 6,000 Chinese migrants arriving in the city. Of that number, 1,235 had come to study at Newcastle University.

Emily Lam, director of The Chinese Centre in Newcastle, said: “The living cost is mainly the reason Chinese people come here. They choose here rather than London because they can not afford London.”

Chinese migrants were also the highest proportion of the immigrant population in Sunderland, where 1,620 Chinese settled in 2011.

“When they think about moving up it may be because of the support,” Emily added. “They have seen people that already have set up a business here.

“In a way the Chinese community is bigger in places like Manchester but the people here in the North East are so friendly.”

In Northumberland, it was Australians who made up the largest segment of the immigrant population - with more than 1,000 Australians arriving in the county in 2011 - a figure than Northumberland Council appeared unable to find a reason for.

A spokesperson: “This figure would appear to be an anomaly, based on the way census data is calculated, rather than a real figure.

“However we are well-known as a welcoming county which attracts people from across the world, so it’s not surprising people from Australia may want to settle in Northumberland.”

And in County Durham, Americans that made up the largest segment of the immigrant population, with just under 3,000 US citizens who moved in 2011. Just under 600 were students at Durham University.

In South Tyneside, there were just over 500 Indian migrants arriving, with Gateshead’s new immigrant population being dominated by almost 1,000 Polish people, and North Tyneside’s migrant community seeing 722 Spaniards arrive.

Elsewhere in the UK, immigrants were most commonly from the US, Australia, India and Poland.

Mr Campbell added: “Since the beginning of the year they’ve said we’re going to be swamped by Romanians and Bulgarians and it’s not like that - at least not in the North East.”

[wazzickle]

It's generally skilled immigrants coming in from the EU and unskilled immigrants coming from outside the EU. If the average leave voter in the north thought he was voting to keep out the muslims and chinese and africans and asians, they were either lied to or dim. If they thought that it was somehow the EUs fault that the local infrastructure can't handle a relatively (to the number of people coming to London, or mainland europe) small number of people, and not woeful underinvestment by 30 years of successive governments, then they were either lied to or dim.

If someone comes over and does the same job as you for half the price, maybe it's you who needs to review your wage demands.

The fellow Brits I have compassion for are the ones that have immigrated but still have their first generation foreign accents and are being abused the country over for no reason other than the fact they're not white british. Not the ones who think this is somehow the fault of immigrants, rather than all the other factors playing against the entire country - banks & finance, economically right-wing politicians who underinvest in public services in the countryside, etc. Not the ones who think that voting to leave the EU will stop chinese cocklers coming. I have compassion for all the Brits who have seen through this not particularly elaborate ruse on the part of Gove, Johnson, Farage and the racist rags that are the mail and sun, and have had this terrible decision foisted on them. Not the ones who hear 'eu elites' and have the class chip on their shoulder activated, or the ones who hear 'people in this country are sick of experts' and get their education chip on their shoulder activated and stop thinking with their brain and make their decisions based on feelings alone, the feeling of worry of not having enough in the future, the feeling of anger of having had more than others in the past.

[realstock]

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/...y-come-8197510

Right at the top of that article it states "Figures, based on 2011 census data, reveal that many of the region's immigrants are not from the EU"

If someone comes over and does the same job as you for half the price, maybe it's you who needs to review your wage demands.

Its basic maths, if the guy is offered a job for £200 a week and his rent is £600, plus council tax (£100 plus) then utilities and food for a young family. Its not feasible, but if a chap was getting paid a living wage for a job, but was then looked over because an immigrant who would do the same job for half the money was available and because back in his native country the wage he gets here is substantially more than what he'd get at home.
I can't begrudge an immigrant for taking advantage of that opportunity, and having the courage to do so.

But as so many has mentioned, this has created a race to the bottom which natives in the UK do not have a chance in succeeding. If your in a well paid job... then why should you care... your alright... so screw the rest right?

We are a nation of immigrants, I have lived and worked in and around London for more than a decade, which regularly involves train and underground, and I have never seen an racist behaviour while travelling, and socialising in London. You are all probably are aware that any racist behaviour whether it be online or in real life is dealt with very swiftly, and rightly so in this day in age.

Britain is a nation of tolerance, if we were a racists nation we would have imploded after the second world war, when we were reliant on immigrants to rebuild everything. So the very idea that all leave voters are racists is complete fantasy. I am not suggesting that there aren't any racists, but as I said above, they will be in the minority, and usually in far flung areas of the UK which have never seen immigrants before, but the moment that one enters your world and you get to know them, then your opinions will change quite rapidly.

We are all humans after all trying to make a better life for ourselves, our family, our community, our country. Unfortunately money, greed, religion and politicians in my eyes are the four big things standing in the way of humans exploring the stars ffs.

Peace out!

[wazzickle]

Its basic maths, if the guy is offered a job for £200 a week and his rent is £600, plus council tax (£100 plus) then utilities and food for a young family. Its not feasible, but if a chap was getting paid a living wage for a job, but was then looked over because an immigrant who would do the same job for half the money was available and because back in his native country the wage he gets here is substantially more than what he'd get at home.
I can't begrudge an immigrant for taking advantage of that opportunity, and having the courage to do so.

But as so many has mentioned, this has created a race to the bottom which natives in the UK do not have a chance in succeeding. If your in a well paid job... then why should you care... your alright... so screw the rest right?

It doesn't really matter how much he would have got paid at home, because he's living here and has to pay the living expenses that apply here, not the ones back home.

You say it's simple maths, I say it's simple economics. As long as there are regulations in place (such as minimum wage) and being applied, more competition is a good thing. If someone else in the same business environment is offering the same product for less, they deserve your business.

My perception - strengthened after the last couple of weeks - is that England is a nation that likes to think of itself as tolerant and not racist but as soon as cracks appear at the seams, the racism comes out.

[Corky34]

Wrong! Age and nationality of the UK is a prerequisite, intelligence and being well informed do not count for diddly. Lets not be blind to think that only the mentally challenged voted leave, as is common judgement from all remainers, with 16 million voting remain you can be sure you had your fair share.

Democracy isn't exclusive to the UK BTW.

But under normal circumstances we would vote for a party with the party leader positioned to be the PM.

These aren't normal circumstances, if anything the extraordinary circumstances we find ourselves in are even more of a reason to hold a GE, to not too would mean we not only have no control over who our next PM is going to be at this vital time but also how far we want to take leaving the EU, that makes all the claims of people who supported leave sound very hollow after so many said it was about taking back control, and democracy.

If you tried for a second to put yourself in the shoes of the average leave voters in the north, who can't find a job because immigrants are doing it for half the price, who can't find a council house, because the immigrants are first in line, struggle to get a doctors appointment etc etc. In that particular Panorama episode it featured father cannot provide for his family because the line of work he is trained in, is swamped by immigrants. Rather than branding them stupid or racist, how about you have some compassion for your fellow Britain's.

I don't need to put myself in the shoes of an average leave voter in the north to know how hard life can be, but to be honest panorama painted then as a bunch of conceited, arrogant, selfish idiots.

I lost my job to Polish immigrants who were willing to work for less: Could do that because he didn't have 6 kids to support?

There's a lack of services in our area: Have these people been living under a rock for the past decade, haven't they noticed we've just had a recession and a government who been following an austerity fiscal model that's resulted in massive cuts to public services?

Woman whose never voted in her life but thought now would be a good time to exercise that right and make her voice heard: Did it not occur to her that maybe she should've made her voice heard in the past if she didn't like the way things were turning out?

Then there was the constant "I'm not racist but" and the "well it cant get any worse" from people who then went on to blame immigration for all their problems while all the time having a roof over their heads, if you think it can't get any worse try being homeless for 2-3 weeks then you'll know how much worse things can get, those are just some of the examples that i can remember from the panorama program that gave me a less than favorable opinion of the people who featured in it.