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About LinkBacksNot as far as I'd like it to be!Originally Posted by MarkR
All duly noted here!
Not as far as I'd like it to be!
All duly noted here!
My expectation is that it will be available via the dedicated digital audio output, too.
What I don't know, though, is what is actually meant by Dolby Digital!
I'd like to think we are safe to assume this means 5.1 multi-channel surround sound but Dolby can be stereo, I think, so such an assumption may not be correct. Though if it did turn out to be stereo, that would be a seriously sad state of affairs.
Hand-on-heart - no, not me. I've heard nothing at all.
All I was told - and this goes back quite a few weeks - is that they are supposed to be working away furiously trying to resolve the bug that restricts you to exporting over Ethernet files that are no larger than 2GB (and truncates those that are larger when the file size on the PC reaches 2GB).
When the results of that labour might come to light, I don't know and nor do I know what else might be included in that firmware update (assuming it arrives) or whether some other firmware update might arrive before and bring a resolution to some of the other bugs and featurettes.
Last edited by Bob Crabtree; 25-01-2007 at 12:48 AM.
Your help was invaluable!
Thanks!
Very glad to see that clarification here - and I'll try to ensure that it also makes it into the review (and is properly credited, of course).
I've now come to a tentative conclusion about what happens when you attempt to export programmes with Windows-illegal file names to FAT32 disc drives attached to the iplayer by USB.
First – iplayer seems to handle at least two Windows-illegal characters intelligently.
Those are:
/
and
:
If these are part of a programme's name, then iplayer will export the programme okay - substituting a space for each of these two illegal characters.
I'd originally thought that there was only one illegal character that iplayer treated intelligently this way – the slash / - because that also happens to be illegal under Linux/Unix and the iplayer's uses a variant of that OS.
But it wasn't until I'd carried out a few other export tests that I realised that the colon : was also treated sensibly.
Perhaps there is some logic to why iplayer treats colons in a helpful fashion but I don't know that might be.
To be honest, it may be that there are some further Windows-illegal characters that iplayer can handle intelligently but I can't tell, cos I've got no way of trying them all out.
That's because an attached USB keyboard seems not to work for renaming programmes and the iplayer's handset doesn't give access to the full set of illegals:
/ ? < > \ : * | "
Consequently, I've only been able to try two others out of the set and these two cause problems. Those problem characters are:
?
and
*
The problem I see when trying to export programmes that have either of these two characters is that the iplayer's My recordings entry for such programmes simply shows "Export waiting" and stays like that for hours and hours. It only changes when you choose "Abort PC Export".
But, after you've done that you are kippered anyway.
Here, any such failed transfer prevents me exporting anything else from iplayer, even programmes that do not have Windows-illegal file names.
The one sure way I've discovered to get those to export after such a failed export is to power off the iplayer at its rear power switch; power off the USB hard disk (and unplug it from the iplayer); then turn the iplayer back on again, bring it out of standby using the handset, wait a few minutes then connect and power up the USB hard disk.
There may be variations on the theme that also work but the above is the nearest to a guaranteed way that I have found.
Sometimes, though, even that method doesn't work - the USB drive is not seen by the iplayer.
Then, most times, just powering off the USB drive and powering it on again gets it to be seen straight away by the iplayer.
The use of chicken entrails and other items of magic may well produce a speedier resolution but have not been tried here.
Know that, of course, any time I attempt to export a programme with either of the mal-handled illegal file name then I'm back into the same vicious circle that requires power-downs. This is the case whether or not an export has been attempted before with that programme – the key thing is that the programme name contains either a question mark ? or an asterisk * .
There has also been a tendency here when I've been experimenting with these exports for the iplayer to lock up quite frequently - the iplayer being on but the handset having no control over it.
These lock ups have not been common at all in my experience with iplayer during other tests I've carried out, so I tend to think that they are related somehow to the failed attempts to export these programmes with Windows-illegal characters in their names to a FAT32-formatted USB drive.
Anyway, time for bed, me thinks.
Last edited by Bob Crabtree; 25-01-2007 at 12:51 AM.
I would expect 5.1 surround sound on the optical digital output. It does not appear to be implemented despite giving the choice of Dolby Digital or stereo. The only material to test it with is multichannel files - neither wmv or mpg appear to work. As you say Bob, Dolby Digital can be stereo but one would expect 5.1 - particularly since BBCHD is trialing surround and the iplayer is meant to be future proofed.
All this may or may not be fixable by firmware. Lets hope it is (together with all the other problems) sooner rather than later.
Looking at the Netgem forum, 5.1 was enabled on s/pdif in 4.7.21 (which is same as evesham's). Doesnt seem to work on multi channel files though.
Last edited by MarkR; 25-01-2007 at 01:28 PM. Reason: extra info
I don’t seem to have the same problem as everyone else with the timeshift. I can save as much as I like and the portion of the hard drive used by system files apparently adjusts accordingly. However I do delete files as soon as I’ve watched them so it’s possible the time-shift doesn’t catch up and fill the available space.
Last edited by Bob Crabtree; 26-01-2007 at 11:00 PM.
As background for anyone who's not quite grasped what's going on, it is the case here that all the while the iplayer is turned on, it is recording to hard disk!
Yes, that's right, it is recording non-stop - and filling up the hard disk as it does so.
Cliff,
I'll look into what you say by first allowing the iplayer to fill up the remaining free space on its hard disk with "System files (for timeshift)" stuff.
Then, while it is in that state, I'll see if it's possible to do a timed or manual recording - checking, in effect, whether iplayer has the intelligence to erase those unneeded "System files (for timeshift)" files.
But, whether or not this is possible, I still regard this non-stop recording thing as a serious flaw - and something that will seriously confuse a large number of users.
But could you do a little test for me, please?
Leave the iplayer on overnight and, before you go to bed, check how much space is taken up by the "System files (for timeshift)" stuff and how much free hard disk space is showing - noting the time at which you check these settings.
In the morning, look again at how much space the "System files (for timeshift)" stuff is taking up and how much free space is left - noting the time when you do this second round of checks, so it's possible to calculate the rate at which the hard disk is filling up.
If you can do that, then please let us know the result here - I'm happy to do the calcs if you provide the raw data.
What I think you will find - assuming that the iplayer is set to a standard-definition channel - is that the iplayer has saved, quite unnecessarily, about 0.92GB (or more) of "System files (for timeshift)" stuff for every hour that it was running.
That's bad enough, but with HD broadcast, the situation is totally untenable.
I did a quick calculation and reckoned that if the hard disk were completely empty and I left the iplayer turned on and set to BBC HD, then the hard disk would be completely filled within 7hr 20min!!
I then put that to the test today - though at a time when there was only 7.2GB of free hard disk space left.
About 42min later, the hard disk was full or - more accurately - iplayer showed that there was 1% of hard disk space left (and wavered between 1% and 3% thereafter).
I believe this is a seriously bad feature, especially given that all you can do about the problem is regularly going and deleting those "System files (for timeshift)" files manually - something that then puts you in a position where, inevitably, you are (one or more of these times), going to accidentally erase the hard disk instead because of the iplayer's silly ergonomics.
Clearly, things will be less serious than I'm suggesting if, in fact, iplayer does zap those "System files (for timeshift)" files to free up space it needs for recordings but if it does that, the whole thing is still totally counter-intuitive.
Oh, but one slightly positive note - I realised today that if, say, you set a whole bunch of timed recordings and then switch the iplayer into standby mode, it seems to have the intelligence to power itself up to carry out those timed recordings and power itself down after each one.
I mention that because, of course, that way of working means that you don't have to leave the iplayer fully powered up and, thus, having its hard disk filled up with stuff you don't need or want all the while it is in that state.
Last edited by Bob Crabtree; 26-01-2007 at 11:35 PM.
Bob,
At midnight, my current uptime is 11hrs 46min
The System files are showing 61.2 GB,
Existing Recordings 13 GB,
Free Space 181.6 MB
& Other Files 82.3 MB.
I am recording a film which has 1 hour 15 mins to run.
I haven’t deleted the system files since some time in December and I record 3 or 4 programs a day, but as I said earlier I delete them when I watch them.
At 09:51
Uptime 21hours 37min
Sys Files 59.8 GB
Exist Rec 14.3 GB
Free Space 1966 MB
Other Files 82.3
Clearly the system files adjust to allow recording and because the most recent broadcast is available the iPlayer apparently intelligently overwrites the oldest portion off the timeshift file.
Last edited by Cliff203; 27-01-2007 at 11:01 AM. Reason: Update values
All Personal Video recorders do that, and it is normally a useful feature. Sky calls it the review buffer, and it is what makes it possible to pause live TV, and rewind. That way if you get distracted, you can rewind what you missed. On most recorders the buffer is limited to a certain lenght of time. (on Sky+ you can choose from 5 to 30 minutes) on Topfield you can have up to 1 hour.
Sounds like the iPlayer is recording without a time limit. Are you sure there is not a configuration option you need to change to limit it?
I stand corrected re timeshift filling the disk. That is not so bad then.
Something I didnt realise.....you can do pretty much anything with timeshift recording in the background - watch other recordings or stuff on USB HD or rewind live TV. Is it me (I did read earlier posts) but if I set up a recording then at that time the machine stops what ever you are doing, switches to the channel and effectively won't do anything else.
I can put up with one tuner but I thought you could watch something while recording something else. I know you can if you just leave timeshift on - but with timeshift you cant archive anything.
It may sound picky but this week I thought I would set up a few favorites during the week on timer. A mistake. If you are watching something you previously recorded and a timer event starts then that is it. It switches over and locks. If you set something to record and then decide to watch it before it has finished recording you can't either. I kept having to search to see if anything was to be recorded before watching something I had recorded.
Am I missing something? If not, this is really poor.
Thanks for the input!
As for the iplayer having a configuration option - no, it doesn't.
If the iplayer is indeed able to use the space that's being taken up by "System files (for timeshift)" files, then the feature, actually, is quite positive.
But, in my view, it's still unintuitive and the whole business would be helped if, a/ The manual made any mention of this matter and b/ you were able to adjust the duration, as chrestomanci describes.
Yes, this is true - the only thing you can't do, as best as I can see, is watch a different channel or carry out a second recording.
Not sure you did read that but it is true that, were you doing nothing, then the iplayer would indeed switch from whatever channel it were on to the channel that is to be recorded.
It's a simple matter, though, to check whether, say, an ongoing playback of a recording (or of a file on a PC or USB-attached drive) is interrupted - and I'll look into that this evening or tomorrow (unless someone else beats me to it).
Not quite sure what you mean - but what I absolutely can do is play a bunch of stuff while a timeshift recording is taking place.
This can be recordings on the iplayer's own hard disk or files held on networked PCs or a USB-attached hard disk.
That said, here, in the current state of the iplayer (playback may be affected by how much or how little is on the iplayer's hard disk), the machine cannot properly play HD TV recordings on the attached USB drive while carrying out a recording - the HD playback is VERY jumpy and not watchable.
Playback of SD, though, is fine.
Playback of HD broadcasts over the network - as I recall - is simply not possible any time (whether or not you are doing a recording) but I need to look at that again - and can't while the iplayer is currently doing a series of timed recordings so I can check the situation with the usage of "System files (for timeshift)" files.
As I said, the situation is different here - I absolutely can do other things while a timer recording is going on. What I don't know is whether, here, a recording I'm watching will be interrupted when a timer-recording starts - but I'll check that.
So, just to confirm two quite critical things.
First, contrary to what has been suggested, here it is NOT the case that a recording I'm watching is interrupted when a timer-recording starts - and that, I feel, is exactly how it should be.
Second - and more important still - I can confirm that (here at least) the "System files (for timeshift)" stuff is actually not stealing hard disk space that is needed for further recordings.
Yes, it is true that the iplayer does record whatever you are watching and that those recordings are what make up "System files (for timeshift)" (along with, I think, the recording/s you most recently deleted) but, that space actually is available for iplayer to use if needed - without you having to delete those files to free up space.
I did a series of timer-controlled recordings and noted how much hard disk space was given over to various things before those automatic recordings started and afterwards.
Before timer-controller recordingsI'd be deeply surprised if any user ends up with a different impression to me and, to my mind, what those figures say is, "You've only got 220.9MB of available hard disk space and so need to delete something before you can do a recording of any length at all".
* Free space on the hard disk - 220.9MB - 3% [of the whole]
* "System files (for timeshift)" - 16.5GB - 22.2%.
* Existing recordings (ie recordings that were made by the user - via the timer or simply by pressing the record button) - 57.6GB - 77.4%
* "Other files" (and I'm still unsure what that description means but reckon it includes what I'd call files-in-transit, as I'll try to explain in a minute) - 82.2MB - 0.1%.
But, quite illogically (though happily), they actually mean no such thing at all.
What they mean is that the amount of space that you have for recordings is at the very least 16.5GB + 220.9MB - that being the amount of space taken up by the "System files (for timeshift)" stuff (16.5GB) and the amount of space that is free (220.9MB).
I say "at the very least" because I think it's also possible that some of the space taken up by "Other files" will also be available (though, that's speculation).
Proving that the iplayer can use the space being taken up by the "System files (for timeshift)" stuff - without you needing to manually delete those files - look at the figures for after the iplayer had carried out the timer-controlled recordings:
After timer-controlled recordings
* Free space - 236.0MB - 0.3% (please don't ask me why that has changed)
* "System files (for timeshift)" - 11.2GB - 15.1% (ie a reduction of 5.3GB)
* Existing recordings - 62.1GB - 83.5% (ie an increase of 4.5GB)
* Other files - 820.3MB - 1.1% (ie an increase of 738.1MB)
Here's a pic that, perhaps, shows the before and after in a more digestible form:
Click here to see a full-size version of same.
Why I go to this length is quite simple. To me, since the above demonstrates that the space taken up by the "System files (for timeshift)" stuff is available for iplayer to use as it needs, then, it's my contention that there is no reason at all to even show users that these files exist.
What I, as a user, want to know, is how much space is available to me for recordings - and that is NOT, as every users is likely to assume, the free space figure but, instead (and at very least) the sum of the free space and the space taken up by "System files (for timeshift)"?
So, in my view, the user's interaction with iplayer over its hard disk space could be made a whole lot friendlier if iplayer simply showed the total of those two and described that total as being the free space.
This would make things simpler and, more importantly, avoid the possibility (actually, the very great likelihood), that the user will right now - and probably more than once - end up accidentally erasing the hard disk when intending to zap the "System files (for timeshift)" stuff.
Oh, and I said near the outset that I thought that the "Other files" include "files-in-transit".
If you've looked at the figures and pic above, you may understand what I'm getting at - I think that "Other files include files that were "System files (for timeshift)" stuff but now the space they take up is being got ready to be made available for recordings.
So, those in-transit files are never shown in the total figure for free space but may, nonetheless, be available for iplayer to use for recordings. Well, that's my theory, anyway.
Any time I have looked the 'Other Files' is always showing 0.1%. I’m just guessing but feel it is more likely these are operating system files which store the settings you can alter from the menus and recording timers etc.
Observing the Digital Recorder Management dialog box for about 10 mins I noticed the values for system files and free space change about every min. The free space cycles up and down but always shows 0.3%. Guessing again I think when the hard drive is almost full and the free space drops below 0.3% some of the timeshift (apparently 0.1GB) is released thus increasing the free space.
Bob, Have you tried removing the Hard disc form the iPlayer and mounting it in a PC to see what format it is?
On most freeview PVRs, enthusiasts have attempted to decipher the HD format used, so that they can get recordings from the PVR more quickly than slow USB or Ethernet transfer. If the iPlayer uses ext2 natively (as looks likely). Then that would be considered an advantage by some.
It would also allow you to figure out what those 'Other Files' are.
Good to know that the timeshift "filling up the hard disk" feature is completely benign - I'll stop worrying about it!
I agree with Bob that showing timeshift info to users is confusing. Although perhaps it would be less confusing if there was some damned documentation... a lot of our issues here stem from there being a diabolically bad manual which Evesham ought to be ashamed of.
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