Sure the HD thing was a trial? Your responses seem a bit harsh to this trial being turned off - maybe it was only enabled for review purposes. I don't think thats unreasonable personally, it would become unreasonable if it can't pick up HD once its officially launched (in 2060 at this rate, and it'll all be subscription with cheques made out to Mr Murdoch).
But I'm speaking from a position of not having an HD TV, so maybe I'm just jealous.
The BBC freeview HD transmission was only a trial, and supposed to be a closed trial - supposedly only available to selected individuals with hardware provided by the BBC.
You should thank yourselves lucky that you ever had access to it.
In any event, I think the trial ended recently, and presumably transmissions ceased.
Just because the box is sold as being capable of viewing HD DVB transmissions, doesn't mean that you will necessarily be able to pick up any signals.
I got the impression that this was more of a future-proofing thing.
It doesn't seem much of a future if Evesham switch off recption of this part of the box. I have had some PMs with Bob on this it now appears as Data in the menu rather than BBC HD. Like a down load twig has been set to stop it decoding.
I'm at variance with those that think that Evesham should turn it off because the BBC or Ofcom thinks they should, how pathetic is that. It's like buying a DAB radio ready for the start of DAB broadcasts in the IoM to find that Evesham has turned off DAB reception. Some people should grow up you can see why the country gets into a mess with jobs worth thinking, and that is all it is. We didn't create a Empire on jobs worth people, we might have lost one.
Now if you do buy this box, do you have any belief that Evesham will not turn HD DTT reception back on or try to get you to buy a newer box claiming some technical restriction and this box was never designed for HD DTT.
What we don't have is quality information on whether guys with there HD DTT USB sticks etc are still getting BBC HD. If it's anything like the early days of DTT the BBC will be transmitting that signal until HD is launched on DTT maintaining they are doing engineering work, tests, trials, demos etc and showing it to the public when ever possible. I don't believe it's been switched off for the minute except by jobs worth guys turning reception off in peoples boxes.
Any HD DTT USB stick people out there ?.
Last edited by Tell; 14-02-2007 at 06:24 PM.
I don't know about the trial ending recently - and if you or anyone else knows this for sure, then I think a lot of us would be keen to hear.Originally Posted by capt_cornflake
As for everything else you say - I think you are spot on.
Last thing first - there is an option in Ulead DVDMovieFactory (I presume that's what you meant, not DVDMovieMaker) NOT to re-render if the file is already DVD-compliant.
You first click on Project Settings button (Alt-J is the keyboard shortcut) then make sure to tick the box alongside the option for "Do not convert compliant MPEG files", as per the screengrab below.
This link gives you a full-size screengrab
As for Evesham being in the wrong over the turn off of HD, I think the legal situation is a bit debatable.
My initial take was that the product is not being sold as being able to receive HD broadcasts, only upgradeable to same when proper HD transmissions, rather than trials, start.
However, in an effort to inflate the product, the company has included some media quotes on iplayer's home page that might appear, in fact, to be suggesting it can receive HD now.
This is the one that might cause problems:
“A cost-effective alternative to Sky HD.” What Home Cinema: Editor’s Choice, March 2007
Although, it has to be said that the more extensive extract of that review and the other extracts on that page seem to me to make the situation clear.
But the quote below does slightly compounds the problem:
"The iplayer is one of the truly great bargains of the HD sector on offer at the moment." The Times Newspaper, 11th December 2006
And things are made worse by the company including an end-user review that says,
Reviewer: James Aston
I bought an HD iplayer from Evesham for Christams and I have to say it has exceeded my expectations. We have one of the superb new 42" screens as well, and my wife and kids could not beleive just how good stuff looks on it, through the iplayer.
It's not just TV though - in fact we watched a lot lest telly than last Christmas, becasue we were looking at all of our photos in high def, even the kids were showing their friends pics they had taken with their new cameras. Best of all, we were able to watch the films I have downloaded to my PC, over the home network, on my TV.
By the way, as we live in London, we are picking up the high definition BBC transmissions. There aren't many programmes, but boy do they look fantastic! Well done Evesham.
I still think the company is probably in the clear but I'm no lawyer and do think Evesham may have made life harder for itself as a result of including these quotes.
I'm glad you are coming round to my way of thinking now Bob, since it's that material that I have read and Evesham are using to sell the box, hence it's miss selling in my view if they have turned off reception of HD DTT for the hell of it since they are small minded engineers etc. Needless to say they still haven't replied to my email asking for confirmation and I haven't ordered one.
I have done another re-scan on my trusty Pace Twin [which I fitted the 80 GB disk in, years ago] and it still slaps BBC HD into the programme guide, so it hasn't gone completely and the BER is 1E-8, ie. approaching zero which means it would be an excellent signal. Wonder if Evesham will come clean and tidy their act up ?.
Last edited by Tell; 15-02-2007 at 12:55 AM.
Thanks Bob for that. Its these non DVD compliant DVB transmissions. VideoRedo left the mpeg non compliant - I can't see if I can change that. DVDPatcher sorted out the compliance thing and all went well.
On the HiDef thing - I should be perfectly entitled to watch HD tranmissions in France and I want it turned on! (reminds me of One Flew Over The Cookoos Nest). I don't even live in the area but once the player is out of warranty I have no say in new firmware. If Evesham go bust, not that they will with this super product (with buggy firmware and HD switched off), or decide to discontinue the product they will not be releasing the necessary updates.
With HD DVB switched off, HD ethernet streaming not possible and HD from USB drive hit and miss - I really think that Evesham should look at the Sale of Goods Act. The iplayers capabilities are at best being wildly exaggerated at worst totally misrepresented. Evesham would not sell or have sold any boxes with HD DVB switched off.
The pdf manual states "you are prepared for HD terrestrial broadcasts". If it is turned off you are not prepared. You are no more prepared than someone who needs to go to a shop and buy an HD receiver. In fact he would probably be enjoying HDTV while you are emailing support about an updated firmware.
As far as BBC HD is concerned, it is a simple technology upgrade, like colour was. If you wanted colour you bought a new TV - as simple as that. With HD you feel guilty just trying to watch something with better picture quality. If they really didn't want people to watch it, they should have encoded it. You'd think they were transmitting hard core porn or something (maybe they were).
The whole thing is so typically British. Treat the general public like mugs and if you can rip them off too - all well and good. I cannot think of any product which is brought out and then the main feature switched off. Its a joke.
I had this email today from Evesham:
Dear
The BBC HD trial on Channel 27 of the Crystal Palace transmitter is not supported by Evesham or by the BBC. Only a limited number of homes are permitted to receive this channel on a closed trial basis.
Kind Regards
Kelly Sharp
So the question is they promote it as able to receive HD DTT on their web site, comments etc. Then say that they don't support it. You can guess what to do with the £300 spending on something else.
Presume when HD DTT goes live Evesham will market a box with a much bigger hard disk and never turn HD DTT back on, on these boxes as they were never HD DTT supported by Evesham [email above, note their web site sale pitch]. I agree Mark it is sharp practice and it does fall into the trades description area since the box is now incapable of receiving HD DTT which they market on their web site as being able to do.
BTW I've reported them to their local trading standards people, other people should do the same since they are misselling a product, in my view.
Last edited by Tell; 15-02-2007 at 05:24 PM.
Mark,
When you save the video out from VideoReDo, in what form are you saving it?
There are lots of options but the three from which I think you are likely to have chosen are:
MPEG Program Stream (*.mpg)
Elementary Streams (*.mpv)
DVD Stream (*.vob)
I personally choose MPEG Program Stream (*.mpg) and make no further changes from the Options button.
VideoReDo speedily produces an MPEG file that I am able to import into DVDWorkshop and speedily output as a .iso file.
Know, though, that DVDWorkshop does NOT appear to like the .vob files that VideoReDo produces.
I have the .vob contained within a folder called VIDEO_TS - otherwise DVDWorkshop simply doesn't find it - but when I choose the VOB, I get an error message:
Failed to read DVD information.
Report ID: 0x80040901(2305)
But the MPEG files from VideoReDo work just fine.
I checked how long DVDWorkshop took to create a .iso file from a small MPEG - just nine minutes long - and the whole process of outputting took under one minute on an Athlon 64 3200+.
This was with no menus and no chapter points - adding those will, of course, cause delays.
Watching how quickly each of the stages completed, I'm pretty sure that no media conversions were taking place (and I had ticked that button for no changes to happen with compliant files).
Hi Bob, Maybe Ulead Workshop is different from Factory5 but I was saving as MPEG. I noticed one file (B-fast at Tiffs) was at a DVB resolution of 544x576. VRedo clearly did not know to change that - DVDpatcher changed it and then you changed it back in the VOB before burning. I think the other problem was a reported bitstream of 15,000,000. Vredo will happily creat the file with non-DVD compliant material. Anyway, still very pleased with editing and joining files in VRedo. Thanks Bob.
This HD thing has really made me see red. I feel Evesham has misled everyone. They happily told me I could use my USBWifi and old Netgem keyboard too. Clearly they will say anything to shift boxes. I would love to have heard what they said at their press presentation. You can't say it is future proofed if HD is disabled. I don't want to have to pray that evesham is still updating the firmware when HD becomes a reality. Without HD there are a number of better STBs - with a dual tuner, bigger hard drive and for less money.
When you asked them about the update in the latest firmware they deliberately did not mention the HD side of things. I can't even get the signal but I hate being ripped off or deceived.
It stinks but I am sure you won't be mincing your words in your review!!! BTW, how is it going?
Mark,
Sincere apologies - I said, DVD Workshop but really DID mean DVD MovieFactory.
And it is V4 - of DVD MovieFactory - I am using.
Can you tell me, please, from what channel you recorded that Breakfast at Tiffany's movie?
I ask, cos I want to do a couple of quick recordings from the same channel to compare.
That's because ALL of the recordings I've exported from iplayer so far (all as .mp2 files, of course) are either 720x576 or the real DVD standard of 704x576.
Whatever the case, the basic settings I've used in VideoReDo do not change the resolution - 720x576 stays 720x576 and 704x576 stays 704x576.
But Ulead DVD MovieFactory 4 doesn't have any issues with importing 720x576 MPEG files and, here at least, outputs these as DVD disc images (.iso files) in double-quick time.
A chunk of a programme that I recorded from UKTV History that was 13m and 39 secs long and at 720x576 resolution, was output as a .iso in a little under one minute.
And DVDs produced this way - based on 720x576 MPEGs - seem to be just fine.
I've imported (into Pinnacle Studio 10) some of the DVDs I created as MPEGs - and the MPEG files produced were of the same resolution as the original .mp2s and MPEGs that went into making the DVDs.
So, where the original was 720x576, so was the MPEG file extracted from the DVD, and where it was 704x576, so was the MPEG extracted from the DVD.
And I say all this without pretending to know why 720x576 stuff wasn't transformed to the DVD-standard 704x576 when Ulead created the original .iso DVD image - all I can guess is that 720x576 is within the "Book standard" for DVD video.
That was very silly of them - and showed, I suspect, more than anything, how poor/limited had been their own testing of the iplayer's capabilities.
Perhaps wrongly (and because I spent eight or so years in retailing myself and then 13 years writing about it), I have more than a little sympathy with retailers who end up buying in products that don't do what they say on the tin.
How on earth can a company such as Evesham properly test a product such as the iplayer before agreeing to buy it in?
The sort of checking over they give it before deciding is going to be pretty superficial and the time spent won't compare favourably with the time that even a second-rate reviewer is going to spend on the task.
Long experience has shown that, more often than not, it's the cock-up, rather than the conspiracy, that is at the root of many issues.
People leaving that press briefing had no idea at all that the iplayers they were going to test did have the ability to access the BBC HD trials.
Any initial claims made by Evesham about future-proofing (and any such early statements by journos) were based solely on the iplayer being able - when full-scale HD Freeview broadcasts started in the future - able to be upgraded easily to receive those future HD broadcasts.
It isn't Evesham that does this - it's the maker, Netgem. But anyone who buys the iplayer now is indeed taking a gamble.
What they're betting on is the likelihood that the BBC will get the green light from government to start a real HD broadcast service on Freeview.
It would be nice to think that this will happen sooner rather than later but I have no info telling me this will be the case and some of the smart money may be placed on a later date that roughly coincides with the switch off of analogue TV.
For me, though, the really attractive thing about the iplayer is the ability to export SD recordings - so that you are only limited in what you can record and keep by how much hard disk space you are willing to give over to the task.
Well, that, and the ability to repurpose SD broadcasts into DVDs.
Oh and the iplayer's ability to act as a network media player is intriguing, too.
I've no doubt at all that Evesham knew that HD would be switched off by the latest update but don't know why the company felt it had to keep this quiet.
One reason may be that, in fact, it didn't want to admit that the iplayers it had been selling already had HD reception turned on.
Whatever the reason, I tend to believe that it was more to do with politics than it was an effort to ensure that sales of iplayer weren't hit by this bad news.
"Mincing your words" is not an expression that most people associate with me!
As for how the review is going - the answer is slowly but I get a little nearer every day and do hope to have finished it and have it live by Monday - even if that means there's stuff that I leave out that I'd have wanted to put in. But if that is the case, it will very likely be stuff that has been dealt with in this forum thread and that I can include pointers to in the review.
So it never dawned on the great and good of the technical press that a Freeview box that proclaimed HD on the front of it didn't receive HD DTT and the company that makes it supplies equipment to the French HD DTT services that it wasn't a HD DTT product. It contains standard HD DTT chips sets and as a standard it would decode HD DTT else it couldn't be called an HD Iplayer that sat in the line for past Freeview SD recorders. The HD was solely about up scaling was it and giving you HD net. The question is how long will it take Netgem to turn that off since Sky or some other broadcaster may say, we don't like this box being sold right now.
Seems to me that the press were a bit gullible if they didn't think that it was a Freeview HD DTT box, Evesham promote it as such on their web site. As far as getting SD output you might just as well buy a box that writes DVD, right them in RW and play around with them on your PC.
That just leaves the net player bit, restricted by the 2GB element if I have absorbed everything. That's about 12 minutes of HDTV off the net. That's not many movies is it ?. Don't forget the Evesham will have palpitations that people are watching illegal material ripped off from the States so even those 12 minutes may be switched off as well.
They say that all publicity is good publicity but I'm not sure this holds true with their actions. Proof you will see but those boxes in stock are stubborn at falling below 310 !. They sell about one every other day, so that will last them for about a year. Profit on those is perhaps £150 per box, £46,500 in a year which isn't going to go very far on the costs of this product which they are doing their bests to sink without trace. I included VAT in that, make it £40,000. That isn't much to cover the product, it's sales, support, software etc. The prognosis isn't good.
I would hate to think that techinical reviewers were in bed with the industry. Got products to review and wrote glowing reports. I was once given a NASCOM home computer to build when the BBC were designing their home computer by the guy advicing them. I kept it after building it. Although NASCOM wanted to know why I had the only computer out side NASCOM with that given chip set
BTW I've now reported Evesham to the Consumers Association.
Last edited by Tell; 16-02-2007 at 12:20 AM.
I've been following this thread for a while - I've got to say I have come to one conclusion
I was so excited about this product, I really wanted one for myself, now - I'm not sure I do.
I personally feel Sky+ is so far ahead with the fact it's a consumer product which works offers far more value.
I am enthusiastic about technology - I love the gadgets and gizmos (just check my blog for my take on some things!) but I've got to say - I am getting tired of products which simply don't work as they should, this is unacceptable. What makes this one worse is that its in the CE market place.
This product will sell to the enthusiast no doubt. However, what scares me is the number of consumers who may well buy it and be scared off from future technology due to it not working properly.
What would I do? Buy Apple TV - why? Well I know that will do what it says on the tin.
I'm very surprised at the outpourings of grief on here in relation to "switching off" HD. The DVB HDTV you were receiving was a trial TO WHICH YOU WERE NOT ENTITLED TO TAKE PART.
As to reporting them to the consumers association, I have to ask for what? Go look at the Evesham website and tell me where it promises to deliver the current BBC HDTV TRIAL. It doesn't, it says its future proof and will be upgraded to displayed HDTV when its available. It isn't currently available. When and if it is, and should Evesham not then honour that agreement, well maybe you'll have a case.
Bob, it 544x576 was Film4 on that particular film (It is obviously a DVB standard). 704 and 720x576 are both DVD standards. DVB has 352,480,528,544x576 as well. Get DVDPatcher as it is only a matter of time before you will be re-encoding. Appreciate your other points.
If it was so important not to let anyone else see the HD material (being simultaneously beemed unencrypted by satellite) then it should have been encoded. Its a bit like watching the cricket from a window outside the grounds. It doesn't do any harm. No doubt Damianw would want to stop this practice too.
If the BBC channel has been temporarily blocked then this is acceptable but very petty. If all HD DVB broadcast are blocked then that is unacceptable. You are not "prepared for HD broadcasts" as the manual states - you are reliant on Evesham releasing unbuggy firmware to allow you to watch it. You may then find out, well outside warranty, that HDDVB does not work properly, maybe the firmware has a number of bugs - who knows. It won't be Eveshams concern at this stage.
Netgem used to state what the firmware did/fixed so you could decide if you wanted to upgrade. If your STB was working well you might choose not to. You could also go back to an earlier version, I seem to remember. Evesham misled because no one would upgrade if it said "HD DVB disable".
I am definitely going to be leaving Evesham customer feedback but I would like to know if it is the trial that is blocked or the whole HDDVB thing. Anyone??
Last edited by MarkR; 16-02-2007 at 12:44 PM.
I read again the reviews (from various journals / ezines) that Evesham has published on the iPlayerHD product page. Some reviewers indicate that the BBD HD Trial will not be available yet in retail products:
"But don't get too excited - our iPlayer was an early sample. In a bid to appease Ofcom-which, with typical stupidity, wants to restrict reception rather than encouraging reception reports from a wider (and thus more statistically-valid) section of the public - this feature will apparently be disabled on commercially-available units"
and
"it’ll even support Freeview HD broadcasts when they become widely available"
Indeed, it's not stated in the 'product spec'.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
LinkBack URL
About LinkBacks
Reply With Quote