Ageia PhysX PPU

[phusg]

DeathByDuke is probably right.

If PhysX can get enough developers to support their PPU (exclusively would be the clincher...) they'd be on a winner.

That requires a nice API and by the sounds of it, theirs needs some polishing.

Have a look at the list of upcoming titles, the support doesn't look like it'll be bad in another 6 months.

Also the author admits he's 'noobilicious' when it comes to 3d programming (as I am), so I'm not sure the API is all bad.

Quoting someone over at Anandtech, "You should realize that the game you are benchmarking is using Havok physics even with PhysX.

http://www.firingsquad.com/news/news...searchid=10096

That's why there is an issue. The game was very poorly coded."

Once the Unreal 3 engine comes out for a showing in the form of Unreal Tournament 2007 I think this card'll look a lot better... (at least that's what I'm hoping ;-)

[phusg]

Just a thought, but I think they should have made the card PCI Express instead of PCI.

After all, it is not going to go into any legacy systems, and all new systems have spare PCI-Express slots that are just sitting there doing nothing.

Developer cards (not that they would let *me* have one!) were reversible and had a PCI express slot too. Apparentely the card doesn't really need the extra bandwidth to make an impact or I think they would have released it with that. I thnk the poorly written game code is the culprit for the benched irregularities, see the link in my previous post...

[Tattysnuc]

I must admit that this review has left me feeling like "why would I bother?" especially with the murmours of an solution that could pass physics calculations onto the graphics cards using SLI.

I do rather like the idea of a "directphysics" environment so that the coding is "regulated" within the OS. To me, that sounds a far more supportable mechanism to drive these kinds of iomprovements. Hey, I'd love to see extra processing power available through the OS, especially via a software solution.

It does add a wonderful list of options to Windows native software.

I really think this needs to be included in high end motherboards though, just to get it out there. If you try to sell a card for £200, then I can see a lot of them appearing on Ebay at some point where people realise that they dont have room for them. If it's a case of bin off a 2nd graphics card, your soundblaster Audigy or the Physics card, this doesn;t sell it to me.

Even SLI managed to get showcase/realworld benefits from day 1 that were much more impressive than this.

Bit dissappointed.

[Tattysnuc]

re: chrestomanci

I guess they are going for mass market appeal.

Not forgetting those with S478 or Athlon XP motherboards....

It could just be an economics thing. After all, it was stated that the card is the same dimension as a soundblaster. It would mean that they only have to worry about developing the chip and software, and not entering the slightly less well tested ground of single or 4 speed PCI-e cards.

Maybe they just stuck to what they knew....

[chrestomanci]

I would have thought that a 1x PCI-e would be sufficient, after all 1x PCI-e is used for gigabit network cards in some servers (where a normal PCI card can't get enough bandwith)

Seeing as at the moment this is an ultra-high end product, I don't see much point in supporting low legacy motherboards that have not been cutting edge for at least 18 months. This card costs the same as two enthusiast motherboards, after all.

The only market for a PCI version that I can see would either be the same design in 18 months as a budget card for £50, or perhaps in professional workstations. I could imagine an mechanical engineering company buying hundreds of these, and stuffing their design workstations with them to speed up engineering sims.

[hatsumi]

I think that the GR:AW use of physx was silly anyway. The game doesn't seem to use much by way of physics, apart from the odd building exploding.

I think a better use in games would be to enhance what is already there, rather than adding on. An example would be say HL2 offloading existing physics to the PPU rather than just adding 20 billion barrels, just cos the PPU can take it even if the GPU can't.

Something like the new game from the Operation Flashpoint developers could use it, perhaps then we won't have 60 ton tanks sliding sideways on a slight incline
An undertaking which as someone else said, would be best implimented from the ground up, rather than tacked on later.

[reallyphysics]

I believe the review from Hexus was particularly harsh with Ageia and so not objective or neutral, and could be misleading. As always, it is easier to do a negative review as it appears the reviewer is setting a high standard and is beyond reproach. The benchmark, however is irrelevant or imappropriate (Frames Per Second measures visual response - here you are measuring interaction of physical objects) - You don't use a rendering benchmark for physics.
Virtually no one was thinking of doing physics in hardware, until these guys at Ageia showed up and disproved the skeptics. I went to the GDC and was impressed and hope to be at the E3 - hope to buy the card by an etail channel soon. I think many games will embrace Ageia hardware ... (if the games want to be differentiated) and here is why. Why would a game publisher continue to pay the software company - an alternative middleware company is called Havok, thousands of dollars and a royalty for each game, when the Ageia guys can give the physics software stack free? A recent report indicated game publishers are running out of ideas (including EA) to set them apart from the competition. Guess what, here is physics. Also, history has proved that specialized functions are best done in hardware - CPU companies tried their best to do everything including 3Dgraphics and then came 3Dfx with a separate processor and then NVidia and so on. In the same manner here is a new category called PhysX or Physics that can be specialized (done) in hardware. They will always do better than trying to compromise the functions in CPU or GPU. Hope to see more relevant objective reviews from Hexus.

[Steve]

Hi reallyphysics,

I had no hand in writing the review, so I'd like to say that in my opinion it's fair.

I don't see how else you can really test the PPU, given that right now, the thing is all about games, and the only way any games are using it right now is to tack on more visual effects. The PPU is using physics to create better effects, which is in turn giving the GPU and CPU more work to do. That's fair enough, perhaps even expected, provided the advantage of such an implementation can be seen.

I think the point is, right now, there's just not enough oomph from the solution to make it worth purchasing. However, from what we've all seen in the Cell Factor tech demo, there's potential for some awesome benefits with a PPU.

The question, however, is whether Ageia's solution will be the one that developers favour, given that a number of other solutions will follow. You're right in saying Ageia has changed the way we think about physics in games, but I really don't think that necessarily means they'll be at the forefront of its development, only time will show reveal that one.

[TheAnimus]

They will always do better than trying to compromise the functions in CPU or GPU. Hope to see more relevant objective reviews from Hexus.

it really annoys me when people compare this co-pro PCI card, to a GPU or SPU (sound proccessor unit, a DSP). Okay, Graphics card has GRAPHICSIE INTERFACE STUFF, MEMORY and then the interface to the rest of the machine (by PCI/AGP/PCIe.....) but when they first came out, they also where on the PCI bus.

it made sense, offload proccessing work to a card thats inline with all the memory and output trickery. No real bottle neck of the bus, just bang it out, and its all out of hte CPU's hair.

same goes with sound proccessing, ever since the SID chip in the old c64, you've been able to offload loads of proccessing work to the synth. It dosen't have to report back to the CPU with any data or anything.

to make a physics one work, the data has to be small enough to be banged to the bus, and returned in little time overhead, and complex enough calculations wanted for it to of been faster than say doing it on the second core that most CPUs are now getting.

Thing is, to get onto the PCI bus (lets pretend we're in windows, because we're gamers) isn't that straight forward, because the game is in ring 3. So some form of optomised API is needed (mabye even memory map it). Upshot, delay. How fast can something be transfered to another core, well that depends a lot on the OS, but in practice a well used mutexing system will transfer so many times faster than an IOCTRL, also mutex locking can be asyncronus.

So yes its totaly possible to beat a conroe's second core ability to map some fluid dynamics, which will look much nicer than a table. But given the cards cost, and hte bottle neck of system interop-ing to the PPU and back again, it really is of limited use, at least for now.

when MS get directX using it, highly optomised for speed calls, and gfx cards have it on their high speed PCIe cards, the matter will be totally different, but one thing still remains, for now, you'd have to be rich/retarded to buy one.

[nichomach]

And from the [H]:

As mentioned in our opening paragraph, PhysX is not bad hardware. The disheartening fact is that there are no games you can buy yet that show off its proposed abilities. This issue goes hand in hand with the PhysX install base talked about above, so excuse me if I am a bit redundant. PhysX cards are going to have to be on the market for game developers to start building content for them. If PhysX cards are not selling, game developers will not be building content for them. It should be of no surprise to anyone that buys a PhysX card that there is nothing to really do with them, unless of course you think the coolness of the Cell Factor demo is worth a $250 investment. If you are a hardware enthusiast or like to think of yourself as an early adopter, you know what pitfalls accompany such a purchase. You will likely pay more for the hardware, have more problems, and have less real content, than those that wait for the market to solidify.

HardOCP

[Rys]

I believe the review from Hexus was particularly harsh with Ageia and so not objective or neutral, and could be misleading.

I notice you're posting from a system belonging to Apex Venture Partners, whose Babu Ranganathan sits on the board of directors for Ageia.

Are you yourself objective and neutral, given that?

[nichomach]

*Ahem*... I believe an appropriate response would be


Seriously, though, I thought that the article was very fair and balanced. I don't think anyone's saying that the hardware, or even the idea, is crap, just that as of now, it's a lot of cash for not a lot of benefit. Most people would be better spending their dosh on a better graphics card. Which they'll probably need anyway to not suffer framerate drops?

[vrykyl]

i tend to agree - phys-x is a useless card atm until it A costs less and B things support it.....plus i dont know about you folks, but iv noticed that:

If you can afford phys-x chances are youl be able to afford SLI
if you thus have sli chances are you only have one pci slot free on your mobo
if you have sli your serious about gaming, as such youl have a decent soundcard....
if you only have one pci slot and that has a soundcard in it.....

Where the hell do you put a redundant phys-x card?????

Now a creative xfi card with onboard ppu....thats what im talking about when I can pay £200 and get a decent sound card with bulit in phys-x (provided games ever take it up) then il jump on board.... in the mean time my audigy2 ZS sits safe in my pci slot

[Steve]

Now a creative xfi card with onboard ppu....thats what im talking about when I can pay £200 and get a decent sound card with bulit in phys-x (provided games ever take it up) then il jump on board.... in the mean time my audigy2 ZS sits safe in my pci slot

Have you seen how much circuitry is on a modern sound card? It'd need to be about as big as a GeForce 7900 to hold a PPU too

[dangel]

...and you'd have to put up with creatives drivers

[Nox]

Wow, I really wish Reallyphysics had posted his vague link with Ageia - he has valid points, as does everyone, could of been an honest and open discussion instead. It really is a chicken or egg kind of situation. Wish I had one though, i've actually got one of those other supported games (Beta testing) and would be interested to see if support is actually built in, though it runs so slow even on my system allready...

Nox