What should by yearly income be?

[j1979]

I think we all know something far more important happened that year

WrestleMania III
Rudolf Hess found dead.

or was it that

You and Dave were born, and instantly asked for a pay rise?

[Sinizter]

no one in this country NEEDS more than £20,000.

Thanks mate. That made me laugh.

[j1979]

You say you have a small wage and a small mortgage but I fail to see how this limits your exposure - surely it's expenditure vs income - hence a relatively large wage and a relatively small mortgage is 'the place to be'?

oh yep, thats the place to be alright.

but, it limits it because if i lose my job, providing i find a new one fairly quick, im gona be on a similar wage, and small mortgage, rather than losing my well paid job and having to get a lower paid job but still having a higher mortgage.

ive Hijacked Jays Thread for too long now tho so ill shut up.

[Blitzen]

I am happy and if I worked for a charity I would not ask for more but I don't so why should my Multi-Millionaire MD have to under pay his staff?

I have 5 years as an IT manager, before that I worked in low level IT, I am 26 and I have worked for some huge setups in the past. In my last job I had to interview candidates to replace myself before I left so I was pretty well respected. In my current role my line managers are the company directors and I am often called into meetings with the directors and the MD to talk about the current IT budget, plans for future development and recently to talk about the new website (that I am co-ordinating).

I am paid a lot less than £25,000 I can tell you that and I think its about time I spoke up as I think people will pay you what ever they can get away with.

Two choices:
1. Speak up and ask for more cash.
2. Move on.

The fact is, either your boss doesnt think you are worth any extra and he could replace you easily for someone that is happy on your salary.
or (not saying this is the case),
you are over estimating your own usefullness/importance within the structure of the company your work for. If thats the case, then you have to move on or have a long look at exactly what you do for the salary you earn.

Well ALL think we should earn more and are worth more to our employers than many of us really are.

true, but the cost of living is driven by inflation and inflation is driven by people asking for higher wages.

no one in this country NEEDS more than £20,000.

I want a certain quality of life and i could get anywhere near where i wanted to be on £20K a year. I unfortunately live in an area where i couldnt get a decent 3 bedroom house for under £190,000. £20K wouldnt get me far now would it.

[Splash]

The "speak up or move on" crew have a point Jay. I was in a similar situation last year - I'd been working for a company for the best part of 5 years and was struggling to get a decent raise (ie to pay me anywhere near the local market rate). I spoke to my boss who said that while he'd love to bump me he was not holding the purse strings and could do nothing about it.

And so I started looking around the market, had a few interviews and now work closer to home for around 6k/year more - this is marginally above market rate, so I'm now a happier bunny.

[Blitzen]

The "speak up or move on" crew have a point Jay. I was in a similar situation last year - I'd been working for a company for the best part of 5 years and was struggling to get a decent raise (ie to pay me anywhere near the local market rate). I spoke to my boss who said that while he'd love to bump me he was not holding the purse strings and could do nothing about it.

And so I started looking around the market, had a few interviews and now work closer to home for around 6k/year more - this is marginally above market rate, so I'm now a happier bunny.

I wasnt being nasty when i say 'Speak up or move on'.
It just the way it has to be if you arent happy with your lot.

Its obviously a call the bluff situation. It could be that the boss in question is happy to let you go.

[Jay]

Well I have a meeting on Friday, so I'll let you all know how it goes.

[peterb]

You raised some interesting questions Jay.

There are a few basics to consider. (And apologies if this is a statement of the blindingly obvious)

Whatever your salary is, your actual cost to the company is going to roughly 1 !/2 to twice that amount, so if you were earning 25K, it would be costing the company around 40K to employ you when employer's NIC are taken into account, time spent doing your payroll, the desk space you occupy, employers liability insurance etc. That is why at times of recession, cutting back on staff is the first option, because large amounts of cash can be saved quickly, even taking into account redundancy payments.

Any employee has to earn for his company about twice the cost of employing him, (again roughly - a salesman earning 40K plus bonuses might be expected to bring in 250K of new business each year) An IT department is not in itself a revenue generation centre, it is more likely to be seen as a business overhead (again depends on the business - a web based internet trading company might take a different view) so whatever it cost to employ you has to be paid for by the business's main trading activity - even though the IT department may be critical to that activity.

The workers that do the job are usually the lowest paid - a mechanic in a garage servicing your car will be paid less than the workshop manager. He only has one thing to do - mend and service cars as they presented to him. The Workshop manager has to schedule bookings, supervise his mechanics, take responsibility for the quality of work, and perhaps be responsible for training. Without the workshop manager - the mechanics wouldn't have any work to do.

Look at an IT department (this is a rather old fashioned model - perhaps more akin to a mainframe environment, but it illustrates the points)

At the bottom of the chain are the computer operators - they do as they are told, are not required or expected to show intiative - and any that do will be nnoted and perhaps earmaked for promotion.

Next might be the sysadmin. He has a management function for the operators, organising shifts, darfting HR reports on them, as well as ensuring that his systems are running as required to enable the business to fulfill its function. He will be expected to take decisions on his own initiative, within his Terms of Reference. He may have formal qualifications, possibly a vocational degree, or lots of experience.

Next might be Head of IT. His job is to implement the strategy of the IT director. He will need analytical skills to interpret company policy, and apply it in the most cost efficient way possible. He will need to take into account total cost of ownership/through life costs, capital costs etc. He will probably be educated to degree level, probably in a science related subject, but that isn't completely necessary, because if he has a good sysadmin who can do some basic reseach and present a range of options, he has (and is expected and paid to use) his analytical skills to come up with an appropriate decision, and to implement them within his delegated authority.

The IT director will be a board member and an Officer of the Company. He may have other roles as well as IT. He almso certainly will be educated to dgree leve, possibly postgrad, and his dgree will be a 's9olid' subject from a Ubniversity recognised as a centre of excellence in his field. He probably won't have much computer science knowledge, but his education will have trained him to research what he doesn't know, until he knows enough to make the right decision, or recognise a flawed plan. His role is develop IT stategy - what he wants the IT de-partment to do, These will include Business continuity planning, disaster recovery (simialr things) and he will have an interest in the Corporate Security Policy. Having developed a stratgy that he thinks will maximise the effectiveness of the IT department (which in practice may mean "reducing costs" it will be the responsibility of the Head of IT to implement it.

If we are talkning about a Limited Liability Company, the IT director has legal responsibilities, and if it a PLC, they have a legal obligation to maximise the return on the shareholders investement.

Other considerations are the avaiilabiliy of staff at the various levels of competency (operators may be 2 a penny, a head of IT will be less easy to find). Experience also counts.

So - IMHO - before you go into your meeting you need to sort out in your own mind where in the organisation in that sort of hierachical way I have described. You need to have a series a logical and persuasive arguments that demonstrate you value to the company. You can list your particular achievents , but use them to demonstrate core comptencies. Things like Initiative, leadership, staff motivation are all things that are likely to impress. The manner in which you present yourself is also important, not cocky, arrogant, angry or whinging, but confident, articulate and persuasive. It is a bit like a job interview, so you neeed to play to your strengths.

You also need to do some research on what the market rate is for the job functions yoiur are actually performing, and you need to compare what you actuall do with what your TORs and job description state that you should be doing. (And your employer has a legal obligation to provide those to you)

If you are a member of the BCS, (and even if not) their website is a good place to start, as it gives breakdown of the comptencies that are required for the various grades of membership, and the types of job they might be doing.

I could go on - but I hope I have given you some constructive advice and at least got you thinking. If you want or need to discuss this further - please PM me.

[Jay]

thanks mate. All good stuff there!

[geezerone]

oh yep, thats the place to be alright.

but, it limits it because if i lose my job, providing i find a new one fairly quick, im gona be on a similar wage, and small mortgage, rather than losing my well paid job and having to get a lower paid job but still having a higher mortgage.

ive Hijacked Jays Thread for too long now tho so ill shut up.

If I may jump in here - but what is a mortgage as it is sooo hard to think about getting one let alone affording one these days. I agree with j1979 with regards to boom and bust which so called 'experts' never seem to want to admit will happen.

The only thing people learn is they never learn someone once said.

The UK economy is based on property and the city. As house prices are falling and the city is in difficulties only one thing is bound to happen and to be honest it really needs to.

[Jay]

Why does it "need to"? That’s a pretty unwelcome comment.

House prices are not falling all over the country. Doom and gloom may be around the corner or it may not, all I know is that no matter what happens, IT systems will always need to be managed.

[Blitzen]

Why does it "need to"? That’s a pretty unwelcome comment.

House prices are not falling all over the country. Doom and gloom may be around the corner or it may not, all I know is that no matter what happens, IT systems will always need to be managed.

They will always need to be managed yes.
But
There are alot of people going after just a few jobs in comparison.

Thye wages will stay low/avaerage while there is a surplus of people to do the jobs.

[geezerone]

Why does it "need to"? That’s a pretty unwelcome comment.

House prices are not falling all over the country. Doom and gloom may be around the corner or it may not, all I know is that no matter what happens, IT systems will always need to be managed.

Don't care if you welcome it or not but my opinion is as valid as yours the difference being I am not rebuking yours.

The fact is the UK housing market is the most overvalued one in the world. House prices are only worth what someone is willing to pay. The failure of pension funds is probably not helped prices as people look to invest for retirement but this has resulted in vastly overpriced housing. I believe houses should be for nesting not investing as it is a basic human need.

House prices have fallen in the UK and although some sellers aren't reducing or by enough will result in a glut of houses for sale combined with the banking fiasco currently underway a recession (as the government has all but stated) will most likely be forthcoming. The idea that a market just keeps rising is wishful thinking and the housing one has shown it is no different - it has to be linked to wages and hasn't been like that for a few years.

IT systems are part and parcel of the modern world so yes, it is highly likely that people will be needed but outsourcing of IT services isn't uncommon and will probably be more common should the economy struggle and like Blitzen says wages will fall due to the supply/demand criteria.

Then again what do I or anyone really 'know'?

[Jay]

True, but I still think I may a well be paid what ever the market value is. Would you sell your car for less than you could get?

1st guy offers £10,000
2nd guy offers £7,000

what would you take?

I think people are getting way of the subject to be honest.

[Blitzen]

I wouldnt sell it for less than i can get. But on the other hand, i would sell it for what its worth.

If you have a car and theres only 5 in the country, no matter how bad it is, it may be worth £5000.
But
If with the same car there was 50,000 in th country, then it would probably only be worth £3000 as people can pick and chose which is the best deal.

Same with jobs.
If a job i vacant and its specialised and hard to fill then the slary will be high (probably).
If the same job is vacant and the market is flooded with people who can do it, then the potential employer can, if he wants to save cash, get the same job done by someone on a much lower salary.
The IT industry is flooded with people. To this end, £25K ish is considered a decent salary for these positions and it will not get higher as there are many people chasing few jobs.

[Jay]

I don't want more than 25K, to be honest there is no way they would give me 25K.