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About LinkBacksSorry?Originally Posted by mcmiller
Thats what I asked. I always use one
Sorry?
Thats what I asked. I always use one
^ I do too. £10ish for a layer of protection is good value. My 480W Tagan blew when I was living in a rented house. I didn't have a surge protector at the time and I'm sure that it was surge that was to blame. The place had been jerry built/tampered with by a builder no less so I'm sure the wiring/main fuse box wasn't up to scratch either.
Incidentally when it went pop it didn't take anything else out with it.
"Reality is what it is, not what you want it to be." Frank Zappa. ----------- "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." Huang Po.----------- "A drowsy line of wasted time bathes my open mind", - Ride.
I not trying to be smart but both the surge protector and the 13 Amp fuse will do noting to protect your PSU if it developes a fault.
The 13 Amp fuse is to protect the cable/lead from overcurrent in the event of a short circuit in the lead, 13 amps can deliver more than enough power without fuseing to do serious damage to equipment with an internal fault. there is a smaller glass fuse in a lot of ATX PSUs for internal very basic protection.
The surge protector stops some voltage surges (spikes from motors and heavy loads switching nearby as an example) the rest of the time they do nothing to the supply to the PSU. The surge is shorted to earth by the protector this happens very fast and can destroy the protection device so old protectors can be ineffective.
All of the protection is before the PSU if It has a major failure internally neither of these protection devices are designed to stop internal damage.
Last edited by switchmode; 21-10-2007 at 04:19 PM.
No, but it will stop power surges from nasty grid current and builder bodged wiring jobs, which is the point people are making. Tagan PSUs are pretty reliable in my experience, I have a 5 year old Tagan that's still going strong which has been running pretty much non-stop. And even when they do go, they don't tend to take the rest of your rig with it, so you can't exactly blame bad PSU design there eh?..
My point was the surge or more properly defined Spike protecton and 13 amp fuse will not protect your PC from a faulty PSU. Many PSUs fail because of low quality components used, capacitors are notorious for failling. Very well respected PSU brands have suffered from these problems so price and a past reputation is no guarantee. I look for jap sourced caps in the PSU as used by Seasonic and Corsair brands. see johnny guru's psu site.
Some PSUs used a "Crowbar Circuit" to short out the output of the psu if an overvolt condition is detected to save the connected Computer Components I'm not an expert on the latest PSUs they may have other overvoltage protection.
Another point to remember is that part of the PSU system for a modern low voltage motherboard is built into the motherboard and bad capacitors have been used in this location as well. This may overload a PSU so its not always obvious what is causing the problem. Blameing a fuse or protection device smacks of a quick moan and not reasoned fault finding. Most domestic wireing is good and would not blow up a PSU even if it was faulty IMHO.
Last edited by switchmode; 21-10-2007 at 08:31 PM.
I was replying to Agent's comment of "Were you suing a surge protector? In my experience most issues are caused by the power its being fed." when I said this.
Be that as it may, a high quality PSU like Tagan is more likely to become damaged from 'dirty' current or bodged wiring (and I've seen some god awful domestic wiring, trust me it happens), than you would from a faulty unit (that happens also of course), so having a surge protector or better yet, an UPS if you're willing to spend the extra, just makes sense.
Yes a any protection is better than none, but I would have to disagree that the quality of the mains voltage is going to be the biggest cause of PSU failure, Not least because its rectified and smoothed inside the PSUs to a DC voltage as it comes in and is then used to drive the rest of the circuits. look up http://www.badcaps.net/forum/ for many discusions on bad PSUs and capacitor problems. Its well worth a look. I'm only pointing out this as I have been interested in these issues for quiet a while and have fault finded a few PSUs with these problems. Starting problems on some PCs flashing blinking led when powering on is the capacitor in the permanent 5 Volt supply to the MB.
I had two cheap PSUs with this problem recently. Just simply bad quality components.
the problem is, not matter how high quality a PSU is, electrolytic caps are notoriously unreliable really. no matter what they will go eventually.
Too true and they have a lifespan by design that is in a few thousand hours usually temp dependant.
in a PSU of the Switcing type the are under a lot of ripple current stress (Its like charging and discharging a small batterie all the time).
There are known brands (capacitors) that are particularly awfull because of a faulty stolen jap chemical fomula that was sold to several far east manufacturers and these components are turning up all the time so its been reported.
Last edited by switchmode; 21-10-2007 at 10:15 PM.
Hi
I didn't specifically mention that the power source was directly related to failures, because that's very hard to prove, only that most issues at the end of a PSUs life can be traced back to the power.
Regardless of if the death happened instantly because of a spike/surge that it was unable to handle, or if its just because of wear and tear of the components, I would guess that's its fairly safe saying statistically speaking, that units fed with a cleaner source last longer.
This is a circuit in itself though, and is as susceptible to failure as the rest of the PSU (some would even argue more so). Also if this part fails, it can send of the rest of the PSU very bad voltages before it totally dies
sorry completely misread it lol i was in a haze from a hangover
My ColorsIT 400w went a while ago whist not powering any more than yours so it just happens at times. I had my mate grab the disk and get my data off it but everything survived perfect.
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Correct apart from the working part
Hi
I didn't specifically mention that the power source was directly related to failures, because that's very hard to prove, only that most issues at the end of a PSUs life can be traced back to the power.
Regardless of if the death happened instantly because of a spike/surge that it was unable to handle, or if its just because of wear and tear of the components, I would guess that's its fairly safe saying statistically speaking, that units fed with a cleaner source last longer.
This is a circuit in itself though, and is as susceptible to failure as the rest of the PSU (some would even argue more so). Also if this part fails, it can send of the rest of the PSU very bad voltages before it totally dies
A lot of recent failures in switch mode psus are on the low voltage side tipically the low voltage output capacitors they are buried in a thick bunch of wires, have little air flow over them and are sometimes components that have been made with the wrong chemicals. The capacitors and bridge rectifiers plus filter and power factor correction circuits on the mains input side have a 1000 times less failure rate in my experiance. they are designed to work at the peek AC Mains voltage which is over 300V and they would absorb any voltage spikes from normal mains in a domestic situation. (if you are out next to a factory with old motors and heavy welding equipment switching on next door then you may have problems. In my experiance its component ageing, Running systems at full load for extended periods and bad components that kill PSUs. Mains interference. Domestic "surge protectors" in my opinion surge is an immotive word designed to sell these units. They may stop lightening damage sometimes if properly install and earthed to ground properly, this has an enclosed device with a gas that conducts if lightening hits and otherwise its an open circuit and will not stop any mains noise at all it totally passive then. the Voltage dependant resistors in most home "Surge Protectors" are of only marginal use they are often a "One Shot device" so after the first spike your protector is now a brick.Some good PSUs have these on the input internally as well so making an external one redundant. A UPS is a better bet. I can't catigorically say mains noise will not harm your PSU but I have found in most failures I have seen as a PC and El;ectronics Engineer this is not the case.
Just for interest the loud bang or pop a lot of people report when their PSU goes is the aluminium can of the capacitor bursting under the presure of steam built up inside by the electrolyte boiling.
The myth that XYZ PSU Company is good all the time is daft one a top brand with good reputation In industry and the hobby market had a recent slew of dead units. I'v seen 8 year old PSUs filled with dust still going strong running at 60% of their load in a aircon environment with good capacitors so its not all bad news.
PSUs work very hard in modern systems and are sold for competitive prices manufacturer retailing marketing all take a slice of the revenue before the build cost and its a mirracle we get them at the prices we pay.
I'm shutting up now as when you have an understanding of something or system you can go blue in the face trying to explain it.
Last edited by switchmode; 22-10-2007 at 09:59 AM.
Switchmode, I thought your explntion was good nd pretty accurate. I agree with your comments about the domestic surge protectors - they just lull into a false sense of security and there is no way of determinu=ing if they are functional or not - after several surges they tend to loose effectiveness. The best protection against surges and brownouts is a UPS.
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Yep, but for a tenners worth they are hardly breaking the bank for that one time they prevent damage.
My brother lost a telly due to a lightning strike. He didn't lose the hifi, dvd player etc that was all plugged into a surge protector that was plugged into the same dual wall plug as the telly.
A month or so later his psu died spectacularly taking everything with it and I'm sure that was related to the lightning strike as that wasn't protected either although the PC was not on at the time.
If surge protectors were £100 then yes they would then not be value for money. I run a UPS because it cost me nothing and we have a flakey supply in this area and until recently we had crap wiring and a neolithic fusebox.
"Reality is what it is, not what you want it to be." Frank Zappa. ----------- "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." Huang Po.----------- "A drowsy line of wasted time bathes my open mind", - Ride.
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