First decent D-SLR: Canon EOS 450d or Nikon D90?

[Bobster]

well i love ISO6400 on the 50D!

this shot with no extra noise reduction outside of C1's default

[Ramedge]

Still bits of banding in that photo.

Should be a bit better than that now with the new firmware


I had a play on a d300, I was going to get it as an upgrade for my d80 so I could keep my flash and lenses but then the 50D came out to tempt me. Better high ISO performance. 6.3FPS at 14bit Raw compared to 2.5FPS on the D300. extra 3mpx not that I care at all but its worth something to some people, the AF seemed a lot faster. Oh yea and it was cheaper!

Just only 9 points of AF instead of 51. Ohwell.

[ACiD303]

and so what if you can continually shoot until a card is full, you only get 1 moment in sports to capture the action and you either get it or you don't, doesn't matter if you shoot @ 10fps you could still hit the shutter at the wrong time and miss it..

This is true, I used to think "wow, I get to use my 6fps" when asked to do a roller derby practice shoot, got a lot wrong - and when I had the wrong settings on, I'd only fill the buffer up with junk images. Altogether, it just means you're going to fill your card up quicker as well, and for what, a handful of images - but at least I was wiser the next time.

Having said all that, I love the sound and feeling of high speed continuous shooting

[brammers]

I'm talking more from the PoV of events & festivals - I don't shoot sports. I'd consider the 40D/A700's better buffers and write speeds a significant advantage - both give more RAWs, the A700 will shoot faster when the buffer is full, although the 40D strangely won't, and both will clear the buffer faster. It's worth noting that the A700 will go even faster with something like an Extreme IV/300x Lexar - not sure about the 40D.

I'm not saying that the D90 performance is poor - far from it. It's very impressive. But there are still advantages to going up a (half) step.

On the other points - looks like we're not going to agree Bobster. I'd take the D300's build and AF over any advantage the 40D's sensor gives it any day.

As to your 6400 sample - I'm afraid the banding is really obvious even in the crop. Can noise reduction software deal with banding like that? I've never had success. Resolution is still good though. That would be dire emergencies only for me. Can you try down-rezzing to 6mp?

[Bobster]

AF is actually better on the 40D than the D300.. on paper its better, but in real life situations the 40D wins

as stated above, the 50D has had a firmware update that helps to eliminate the banding @ ISO6400, the above id be happy with using in print anyway..

[Taz]

A quick question: what should I look for in terms of RAW image capability between the 450d and D90? I need to bite the bullet this week and it's a lot of money to spend so I don't want to wish I had bought the other one. My current 35mm SLR has lasted 20 years and is still going strong!

For very important shots I would like to shoot in RAW mode. As I understand it, this is uncompressed data taken straight off the CMOS detector. I have heard references to 12-bit and 14-bit RAW mode but am unsure as to the parameters that would make RAW processing better in one camera versus the other.

[brammers]

I think we're just going to have to disagree again Bob - I wouldn't call the 40D's AF better than the D300's, having used both. In fact the 40D's left me... not awful but not great either.

I think we'll also have to disagree on the usability of the above example! Any chance of a post-firmware fix sample?

Taz - both cameras do RAW. The D90 is more comfortable dealing with the larger file sizes - faster processing and write speeds.

IQ - both are very good.

At low ISO both look great - with default development the Canon comes out slightly cripser and more punchy but the D90 certainly holds the resolution to match the Canon. Apply the slightest touch of sharpning in PP along with some clarity and you're back on an even footing.

The D90 goes to higher ISOs and they actually look fairly useful still - there's a lot of detail lost but small prints/onscreen would probably be ok. While the 450D only goes to 1600, it's fair to say IQ is a smidgen crisper than the D90's there - it appears to maintain contrast better. The D90 files at this kind of ISO will be less flexible, I have to say I'd go with the 450's files here - but remember that the difference is utterly minimal.

I've never kept my own files from either of those 2 (the 40,000 or so frames I shot on a 450D were handed straight over to someone to do all that for me - and a good thing too!) so I'm going entirely from the samples here:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond90/page20.asp

Personally I'd take the D90.

[Flibb]

Big question is will there be any post christmas discounts this year? Thers already a price war with the D90 between amazon, play and some camera shops, but canon, nikon, sony, etc might do cashbacks later

[Taz]

^ That would be good. Best price at the moment for the D90 camera plus kit lens is around £715. That's a pretty good discount off the RRP and a cashback would make it even better! I know that Canon are still doing cashbacks on some of their cameras - an offer they have extended until Jan 2009.

[Bobster]

I think we'll also have to disagree on the usability of the above example! Any chance of a post-firmware fix sample?

ask Ramedge for one, i don't own a 50D i just edit files..

[brammers]

I know Sony are doing cashback atm - 50quid off IIRC. No idea about CorN - I would expect they will in the Xmas runup though.

[Ramedge]

50D ISO 6400 with new firmware. Taken at 1/20th of a second in low light.



Looks about the same as ISO800 on my D80 hah

[brammers]

Much better - still banding but a lot less noticable. Resolution still looks good. Impressive

[colmo]

My primary objective is to get a camera that can produce very good quality pictures. RAW output may become a factor later on. I am a big fan of saving all my media in lossless format when possible and then to transcode to a lossy format as and when required.

Disregarding the differences you get between classes of camera (primarily better viewfinders, faster continuous shooting rate and more rugged/weatherproof build), in terms of pure IQ per £, my batting order would be something like.

£345-£50 cashback - Sony A350 - 14MP APS-C sensor, anti-shake, live-view, excellent dynamic range, not quite so good at high ISO.
£400-£50 cashback - Canon £450D - 12MP APS-C sensor, live-view, good high-ISO)
£420-450 - Fujifilm S5 - 6MP APS-C sensor (also has a faux-12MP mode), excellent dynamic range, superb JPEG engine, a fave of wedding pros.
£580 Pentax K20D - 14.6MP APS-C sensor, excellent weather-sealing, anti-shake, nice viewfinder..
£590-600 dead heat between Sony A700 and Nikon D90 (related/similar sensors) - A700 has anti-shake and 5fps, A90 has video and live-view - both are 12MP APS-C, feature weather-sealing and have nice viewfinders.
c.£800 - used Canon 5D - 12MP full-frame sensor.

[Bobster]

£420-450 - Fujifilm S5 - 6MP APS-C sensor (also has a faux-12MP mode), excellent dynamic range, superb JPEG engine, a fave of wedding pros.

so Fuji would like you to believe.. i don't know a single wedding tog who has owned a S5..

[colmo]

Really? I know when I got a (post-)graduation photo done a year or two back, the 'togs were shooting with tethered Fujis (probably S3s). The S5 is a quirky suggestion, but can do a job, and is a nice price. It's a nice camera (using the very nice Nikon D200 shell) for just over £400, limited mainly by resolution for printing larger. The new 10-12MP CMOS sensors do fairly much match it in dynamic range now, and beat it in resolution.