First decent D-SLR: Canon EOS 450d or Nikon D90?

[colmo]

Welcome to the forum, Niko.

I think the principle thing we need to know is what is your budget? After that, how much are you willing to carry? - For the type of shooting you do, lightweight and flexible kit is important.

After that, local availability becomes a factor - are certain brands cheaper/more widely available in Thailand than others? The current running order of dSLR companies is
1. The big two - Nikon and Canon
2. The up and coming - Sony.
3. The niche players - Olympus, Pentax and Samsung (Pentax and Samsung share technology, and release virtually identical cameras under different names).
4. Minor - Panasonic.

In terms of lenses, you can go for specialised lenses for each king of shot, but as you have surmised, that adds weight and cost. You can get 'all-in-one' lenses, the current best probably being the Tamron designs 18-250mm and 18-270mm.

A note on focal lengths - on entry-level and midrange cameras, roughly <30mm is considered wide angle, and >40mm is considered telephoto - there are variations, especially for Canon and Olympus. For more in-depth detail, I suspect there are excellent sources already on the Internet.

Regarding image quality on dSLRs versus compacts, the main difference is that the sensor on the dSLRs is much, much larger than the compact, and with that size, comes increased light-gathering potential. This helps reduce noise and gives a 'cleaner' image. Again, there are excellent sources out there that go into more detail.

[brammers]

Let's go with a few of your questions:

I basically am outdoors taking photos of scenery, nature, flowers, waterfalls, animals and maybe people here and there.

Any DSLR can do this.

I am also interested in macro as there are always some interested things to see in a nice macro photo.

Any DSLR can do this too.

I want a camera I can grow into so I am being cautious with this first purchase.

We just had a big discussion on this. DSLR bodies depreciate quickly - as soon as you open the box you've lost money. This is an argument for buying a cheap one to see if you like it.

However a lot of people move on up very quickly - one forum I look at has an amazing number of A200s, D40s and 400Ds being ditched in the first year for A700s, D80s & 40Ds. This is the argument I'd go for - if you think you're going to be half serious, try to aim for the mid-range.


I also want to buy a nice telephoto for long range shots, preferably up to 600 mm or what ever is equivalent to that.

Pedantic mode on - 600mm is 600mm is 600mm - this never changes. What does change is the field of view depending on the size of the sensor you put behind that 600mm - so on a compact you've almost got the Hubble Space Telescope, on large format you'll be taking panoramics (ok - OTT). Here's some reading to help you understand that:

http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glos...tiplier_01.htm

In short - 600mm on a DSLR is HUGE. You can look at one here - it weighs 5.5kg and comes with its own briefcase... Yours for a few thousand.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...m/IMG_9319.jpg

You'll have to expand upon your specific wants for a suitable telephoto length - you may find that a 70-300 f4-5.6 does you fine, or maybe you want something a little bit more specialised - 300/4 or 100-300/4 perhaps? The great thing about glass is that unlike bodies, it doesn't depreciate very much if you keep it in good nick. In fact for really good stuff it can appreciate...

I would also like a nice wide angle for scenic shots

ok!

and maybe a macro


Macro or close focusing? A macro lens is (normally) one that focuses to 1:1, maybe 1:2 - that's lifesize or half lifesize. That's very, very close up - we're talking counting the hairs on spiders' legs.

A lot of zooms do close-focusing - just like it sounds, they focus close but they're not actually macro. If you just want close-ups maybe one of these will do you - it's 2 lenses in one and a lot cheaper.

I saw on one of Bobsters post's he listed all kinds of lenses with all kinds of numbers that do not correlate to anything with my limited knowledge?

You're interested in 3 numbers - the focal length (mm), the f-stop (aperture - f-whatever) and the cost!

Focal length = what you see through the lens - wide or telephoto? These are in 35mm effective focal length (see the Focal Length Modifier section above)

12-23mm - crazy wide.
24-35mm - wide.
35-58mm - normal.
58-200mm - telephoto.
200-300mm super-telephoto.
300mm + serious telephoto.

F-stop = how much light the lens lets in. Small f-stop = wide aperture (big hole).

f1.2 - crazy bright.
f1.4 - gonna be expensive if it's not at 50mm.
f2 - a great balance between brightness and cost from 20-100mm
f2.8 - a great number to see in a zoom, also popular with macros and cheap primes. A good brightness.
f4 - if it's a long zoom then this is a good number.
f5.6 - getting dim
f8 - really dim - needs a special reason to be this dim (eg Minolta 500mm f8 Mirror lens)

It's easiest to design a lens around 50mm which is why you can get a cheap 50mm at f1.4 (very bright). The wider or longer your lens the harder it is to make it bright (or the more glass you need...) so the more expensive it gets. I've got a 35mm f2 lens that weight about 300g and has about 40mm of glass at the front.. I've got a 135mm f1.8 lens which weighs about a kilogram and has about 74mm of glass at the front...

Zooms suck light - all the glass is really complicated - that's why you don't tend to get them faster than f2.8. If a zoom lens only has 1 F number in its title it means it can do that f-stop all the way through the zoom range - a CZ 24-70 2.8 can do f2.8 at 24mm, at 70mm and anywhere in-between. These are expensive. A variable aperture zoom lens looses maxiumum aperture as it zooms in - these are cheaper. Minolta 17-35 2.8-4 - at 17mm it can do f2.8 but at 35mm it can only do f4.

Bright glass gives a bright viewfinder and helps autofocus - more light gets in. It also allows creative DoF effects - you can make the background OoF and blurry.

I am assuming that to be a photographer, you have to carry around all the different lenses you would need in the course of a day of shooting?

Yes and no. While you're not going to do a safari with an 18-55mm zoom, for a lot of things a single prime lens will do the trick. I shot for ages with a selection of 35/58/135/200mm primes and never really had any trouble. A lot of lenses are special purpose - if you have a 600mm f4 you only get it out when you want to shoot something a long way away - never for wandering round a city.

One good all around lense that could wide angle and zoom outdoors would be nice if they make such a thing as well? Meaning taking a photo of an animal that may be close and the same time a waterfall that may be far away?

Yes - but the compromise comes in aperture. A nice standard zoom lens is the Tamron 17-50 2.8 - nice and bright, but it's only a 3x zoom (17x3 = 51). A Tamron 18-250 is a 14x zoom lens, but at f3.5-6.3 it's not fast - especially at the long end where you need faster shutter speeds because of the focal length - it's harder to hand hold a telephoto lens than a wideangle. There's also mid-way compromises - say a Sigma 18-125 3.5-5.6 - it doesn't zoom in as far, but it's a bit faster.

Right now I am clueless as I am sure any DSLR is way above my capabilities, but I would like to hear recommendations on what I can grow into as I have plenty of time and I am serious about learning all this?

Nah - if it all goes tits up then you can just stick it on Auto mode and it'll take a perfectly standard picture. Heavier yes, but you're never going to get worse pictures than you do with your compacts - well probably not

I would also like to know how much better can the image quality be if you use a DSLR like a 50D or D90 versus a pocket digital camera like a Sony T100 or T700?

In good light a pocket digi-cam is suprisingly good - good enough that I've sold pictures taken with them. As the light drops then the DSLR will stomp all over the pocket cams - the AF is a lot surer and the image quality, especially with regards to noise, holds up a lot better as the light drops.

Some good reading to get you started there, hope it helps!

[Niko]

Colmo,

Thanks for all the helpful information. As far as budget, I am not on a fixed budget but do not want to go to the extreme outer professional expensive end like a Nikon D3. Certainly the next levels are no problem at all. I would like to buy something that will still be useful in a year or 2, specially after making an investment in lenses and wanting to use the lenses possibly with a different camera in the future?

I would guess for those of you that maybe go out and stomp around in the woods all day, carrying equipment and changing lenses does become a big concern which I am now aware of?

I would be in the situation where maybe driving down the road would stop and take long range scenic shots, but then would walk through the jungles or whatever to see a waterfall and take photos all along the walk of plants, animals, rivers, tree's etc.

So perhaps for this application you would recommend a good all around lense and maybe for the scenic shots from the vehicle a good telephoto? I am getting from your comment that if a lense is say 17 to 270 that means at the 17 end you get a wide angle but if you zoom out to 270 you get a telephoto shot? Is this correct? So this one lense would do 2 jobs if required?

What about a lense for shooting something like an animal running without getting a blurry photo?

I would appreciate any good website references that might explain things like f stop and white balance and other routine things for a beginner to learn and understand. Are all these things manually set up for the best shots or does the camera automatic mode do this for you?

What about things like sunny days, versus cloudy, or low light near dusk? How is all this handled.

I see all kinds of references made to different F numbers and I am not sure if this is something you set on purpose for a particular kind of shot or how exactly this works.

Can you give me an idea if lets say you were approaching say an animal or flower, what determines what F number you would use? Or is there something I am missing here.

What is the key thing to prevent a blurred photograph with a DSLR? Do you always have to use a tripod to prevent blur or can you shoot with a telephoto and be ok with no blur?

Sorry for all the questions

[Niko]

what do you see yourself taking photographs of most?

if its just general run of the mill stuff Tamron 28-75 is a pretty decent bit of glass or the Sigma 24-70
and then you could also grab the 50 1.8 for low light stuff

or you could go for super wide stuff landscapes arty stuff - Tokina 11-16 is an amazing lens

if you're not really sure, splash out that extra 18 and get the 18-200 IS then if you find you shoot more stuff at the zoom side, you know you have to save up some pennies and get a 70-200 or if you shoot more on the wide end, you know you need that Tokina or a fast wide in the 17/18-50 range

Tamron 10-24mm f3.5-4.5 SP Di II LD &#163;379
Tamron 17-55 2.8 for &#163;269
Tamron 28-75 2.8 for &#163;299
Sigma 10-20mm f4.0-5.6 EX DC &#163;310
Sigma 15-30mm f3.5-4.5 EX DG &#163;199
Sigma 17-70mm f2.8-4.5 DC Macro &#163;210
Sigma 18-50mm f2.8 EX DC Macro &#163;269
Sigma 24-60mm f2.8 EX DG &#163;279
Sigma 24-70mm f2.8 EX DG Macro &#163;305
Sigma 50-150mm f2.8 APO EX DC HSM Mark II &#163;445
Tokina 11-16 mm f2.8 AT-X Pro DX &#163;345
Canon 50mm f1.8 II &#163;79
Canon 18-200mm f3.5-5.6 IS for &#163;418
Canon 24-85mm f3.5-4.5 USM for &#163;299
Canon 28-105mm f3.5-4.5 USM II &#163;199

Do each of these lenses have a specific job they are used for?

Thank you
Thank you for all your help

[Niko]

Brammers I truly appreciate all your help. I have already learned some much from reading your post. I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to answer these questions.

[brammers]

You say that you're not really on a fixed budget... How about an amateur full frame DSLR?

One of these will last you a hell of a long time, but they're about 1500 and they need good glass - no cheapo zooms for these babies.

You've only got 3 to choose from unless you go 2nd hand and they've all got their own very specific characterics which makes choosing them a doddle - you don't have to worry about whether one is better than the other, instead you worry about which set of features you want.

For a FF DSLR + a decent standard zoom + telephoto + a LOT of memory we're looking at the thick end of 2250pounds - but if you look after it you've conceivably got all the camera you'll ever need. How does that sound?

[colmo]

A huge thumbs up to brammers - far more exhaustive than my effort.

Niko, I remember when I was in your shoes about 8 years ago - I spent a month on the premier photo website of the time, photo.net (still going strong), and read everything I could.

The kit I started off on was very modest, and perfect for learning - a manual focus camera with a few prime lenses. This reduced the number of variables I had to keep track of, meaning I could concentrate on the important things, like composition and technique.

These days, it's more cost effective to get a dSLR (film costs add up!), which means they are quite a bit more complex - in addition to all the stuff you could do on film, there's a whole extra layer of things made possible by digital. I suggest you break it down into chunks, and gradually build up your understanding. You may want to do this feature by feature (correct exposure using aperture/shutter speed, focusing, ISO sensitivity, lens selection, tripod technique etc.) or by scenario (what do I need to do to shoot a waterfall/animal/landscape/macro etc.). You may want to do this before you commit to a camera, or perhaps you prefer to learn by doing, so buy the camera first (this depends entirely on your learning style).

I would suggest you start with a camera and one, or maximum two, lenses. Don't get carried away collecting more until you've come to grips with that first (or first two) lens(es). The recommendation of buying the basic 50mm lens for that system is an excellent one - they are high quality, cheap lenses with no zoom to distract you - don't use zoom as a substitute for walking! So a kit lens and a 50mm would be the first two lenses you try. Telephoto would be next, as it does require more skill and confidence to use in certain situations, then you're ready for macro, which requires good focusing skills and perhaps either tripod or flash technique. The flash comes in there somewhere, the priority of it depending on if you shoot much indoors. A high quality tripod should also feature fairly early in the piece - there are a lot of South-East Asian tripod manufacturers turning out very nice carbon fibre models for reasonable money (Feisol and Benro come to mind).

Ok, a quick breakdown of an example lens from the list:

Tamron = the manufacturer; Each manufacturer makes lenses for their own cameras, but there are a number of third-party ones too - Sigma is the biggest, with Tamron and Tokina making fewer, but no less good lenses.

10-24mm = focal length; this zoom lens can use any focal length between 10 and 24mm. Note that this would be considered a wide-angle zoom.

f3.5-4.5 = aperture, in this case variable, with a maximum of f3.5 at 10mm, and f4.5 at 24mm.

SP Di II LD = manufacturer's model info, mostly for identifying different lenses of the same focal length. 'SP' = Tamron's top line of lenses, 'Di II' means it is designed for the slightly smaller APS-C type sensors, 'Di I' being capable of use on both APS-C anf full-frame (including film) cameras. LD = Low Dispersion, signifying the use of exotic low dispersion lens elements to improve image quality.

&#163;379 = the price in British pounds sterling, in case you don't know

[tfboy]

Wow brammers, what a fantastic post

Funnily enough, a friend of mine was asking similar questions the other day and I tried to explain aperture, shutter speed, ISO, zoom, etc, and the effect they have on photos and just completely confused the poor girl

As far as aperture goes, as well as determining the amount of light hits the sensor, it also controls what's known as the depth of field of DoF. A smaller aperture number means a larger open aperture, but a smaller DoF. And the DoF is the amount of distance a shot is in focus. When you have a very small DoF (open aperture), there is a lot less of the photo that is in focus. If you have a very large DoF, then everything will be in focus. Small DoF is good to isolate a subject - so typically, a portrait would have the person nice in focus but the background will be soft.

In my attempts to explain this, I took a couple of shots, so hopefully it illustrates the point: the jar is about 1m in front of the camera, the rear end of the kitchen about 4m.

Small DoF (f/1.4) - close subject in focus, but rear stuff well out of focus


Large DoF (f/16) - close subject and rear all in focus. You can now make out the taps at the back of the kitchen.


Also, as others will tell you, Nikon is no better than Canon which is no better than Sony Alpha or any other dSLR manufacturer out there. So don't be too bothered about which one you end up getting. The biggest decision making is mostly in the ergonomics of a camera. So it's worth trying out a Nikon, Canon, etc, and just see what feels best. At this stage, you're buying into a camera mount format, not much more. If you stick to the major players, you'll have an enormous catalogue of lenses to chose from

[BUFF]

So perhaps for this application you would recommend a good all around lense and maybe for the scenic shots from the vehicle a good telephoto? I am getting from your comment that if a lense is say 17 to 270 that means at the 17 end you get a wide angle but if you zoom out to 270 you get a telephoto shot? Is this correct? So this one lense would do 2 jobs if required?

something like the Tamron 18-250mm is a good jack of all trades but in designing something with that focal range there are inevitably compromises:
it's a ~14x zoom & that means that qualitatively all other things being equal it's going to be not as good optically as something with more modest aims e.g. a 3x zoom range. So to a certain extent you are trading off some image quality for convenience.
another compromise as already mentioned is the max. aperture e.g. on the Tamron it's down to f6.3 at 250mm whereas it's not uncommon for 300mm lenses to have max. apertures at 300mm of f4.0 or even f2.8 but those will be a lot larger, a lot heavier & more expensive (& indeed won't have a ~x14 zoom range as they are designed with more emphasis on the quality side of the equation than convenience).

What about a lense for shooting something like an animal running without getting a blurry photo?

it's not so much the lens here as the shutter speed that you use to freeze the animal's movement.
having said that your shutter speed will be influenced by how much light is available to the sensor & the lens aperture is part of that equation.

What is the key thing to prevent a blurred photograph with a DSLR? Do you always have to use a tripod to prevent blur or can you shoot with a telephoto and be ok with no blur?

primarily there are 2 causes of blurring (we'll assume that it's a half decent lens optically) - subject movement & camera shake.
subject movement can be frozen by choice of an appropriately fast shutter speed & also by a technique known as panning (good panning takes a lot of practice but does result in a nice sharp subject with a motion blurred background to suggest movement).
camera shake can be ameliorated/eliminated by again choice of a fast enough shutter speed (a rule of thumb is minimum 1/ focal length so e.g. if using a lens with a 400mm focal length you want to use 1/400th or shorter), image stabilisation of some kind (there are basically 2 types, in-lens & in-body, each with particular pros & cons but overall similar performance) or physical support e.g. monopod, tripod etc.

[Niko]

TF BOY were these photos taken with 2 different lenses?

I see the F1.4 and the F16

I can understand DOF with the help of your photos thank you.

Can you tell me about the F1.4 and F16?

Is this a setting inside the camera that you changed to get the different depths?

I am not sure how these F1.4 and F16 numbers come into play with an actual camera whether it is a manually adjustment or something else.

Can you explain this in more simpler terms for me?

Thank you

[Niko]

Buff

When you talk about a fast enough shutter speed, is this something you have to manually adjust inside the camera settings? I am kind of at a loss here?

Lets say you were out for a walk taking scenery photos etc, when an animal ran out of the woods. What is the procedure to change the shutter speed to capture this or do you have to already have the camera set up for expecting this type of action shot?

In the jungles of Thailand, there are wild animals but it is not every day you get a chance to see them. The other day for instance I saw a wild elephant while I was taking some photos of some surrounding scenery (not using DSLR unfortunately)

I was along a road when an elephant came out of the jungle onto the roadway and started coming towards my truck, which I had to put in reserve to back up slowly as the elephant kept coming towards me.

The elephant was thrashing his head around and as such the photos were blurry. It was at this point I realized a real necessity to learn how to use a DSLR. This particular incident, seeing an elephant in the wild in 400 square miles of mountainous jungle was problem a once in a lifetime deal that was rubbishrubbishrubbishrubbished up due to not knowing anything about real photography. I was fortunate the elephant stopped so I did get one or 2 photos but in the end I promised myself I would learn everything so the next time I can be prepared.

It seems there are some many things with a DSLR that you can do but I really need to understand the basics

The posts here are excellent and have helped me so much already and I really appreciate it

Thank you

[Niko]

Lenses and Different Light Situations

As I am understanding the importance of light on the sensor and aperture settings, I have a question whether you need different lenses for different lighting conditions or whether one lense with a variable aperture does the job?

For instance it might be a bright sunny day

Then towards dusk you have a loss of daylight

Then in the evening for things like shots of the cityscape or skylines

Is this something one lense can handle well or do you need special lenses?

For example if you were going out at night specifically to take photos of the city where the building may be off in the distance quite a ways (meaning a few thousand meters away)? Would you have a special low light lense just for this task with a wide angle or zoom or both?

Is there anything that needs to be adjusted or reset inside the camera when the light starts to disappear?

Thank you

[tfboy]

Niko, it's the same lens.

What you have pointed out is one of the best things with dSLR cameras: you (can) control everything yourself.

DSLR cameras have several modes of operation, and part of those modes will be aperture priority, shutter priority, manual, programme mode, auto, etc. You will get this on any DSLR, whether it's entry level or professional model.

In order to get a photo looking good, you need the correct "exposure". This is where you have just the right amount of light through the lens so that your picture has correct light setting: it's not too "bright" (over-exposed) nor is it too dark (under exposed).

There are two main variables which affect this: shutter speed, aperture (ignoring ISO for the moment). To get the correct exposure, you have to balance the exposure duration with the aperture opening. So you can have a very wide aperture (that will let in a lot of light) combined with a very short exposure because you don't need a lot of light for a lot of time to get a good exposure. Or, you can have a closed aperture that will need a much longer shutter speed to compensate for the lower amount of light getting in.

When you put a camera on shutter priority, you control the shutter speed and the camera will adjust the aperture for you to give a correct exposure.

When you put a camera on aperture priority, you control the aperture and the camera will adjust shutter speed.

You will also find a "M" or manual mode where you control both aperture and shutter speed in which case it's up to you to get the correct exposure. The camera has a exposure or light meter which indicates this.

The two examples above are with the same lens on the same camera, taken only seconds apart. The f/1.4 shot was a fast shutter speed - 1/40 second. The f/16 shot which has a lot more in focus required a 3 second exposure to get a similar amount of light. I used the "aperture" priority and let the camera decide on the exposure time.

As an analogy, imagine you have to fill a bucket of water with a hose pipe. Now, the larger the diameter of the hose, the faster a bucket will fill up. The diameter of the hose is like the aperture of the lens. The time you have the tap open is the shutter speed. But you decide whether to use a huge large diameter hose and only have the tap on for a very small amount of time, or you use a really thin tube which will need water flowing through for a few minutes to get the same amount in the bucket

The ISO setting is the gain or how "sensitive" the sensor is to the light. The lower the ISO, the lower the noise or digital grain on the picture. However, using a high ISO is sometimes necessary because you have reached the limits of aperture of shutter speed and the only way you can get a decent photo is by multiplying the sensitivity. But when you get to high ISOs, then you really start to see the noise. Imagine turning the hose pipe tap open so much that the bucket fills really quickly, but water splashes everywhere

I hope that makes sense.

edit: re-reading your previous post, I have to apologise, I don't mean to insult your knowledge

If you want to take photos at night for example of buildings in the distance, even the fastest lenses, ones with very low aperture capabilities probably won't be enough. In this case, your only possibility is to decrease the shutter speed. In which case you'll need a tripod to get a clear picture. You can use a normal lens without any problems whatsoever.

If it's very bright, then any lens will do because you won't be short of light Having a fast / low aperture capable lens is more applicable or really really useful in things like sports with telephoto lenses. For cityscapes and skylines, you'll be using a wider angle, and anything will do IMHO, there's no real point spending a fortune in top quality glass until you really get to grips with the camera and how it all "works" - no offence

Long exposure shots can be arty too - for example long streaks of lights from cars, slightly blurred people. It can all be to good effect.

[tfboy]

Regarding your elephant situations, a kit lens would probably have been fine assuming it was bright enough. The other big advantage as well as controlling the shutter speed and aperture and all the other settings is that the camera takes the shot when you press the button - there's no shutter lag like you get with point and shoot cameras. With fast-moving action, you have to get a fast enough shutter speed to freeze the action. So, as previously mentioned, it's good practice to stay within the shutter speed = inverse of focal length rule.
If you had a dslr and you were on shutter priority and had it set to, say, 1/300th, the photos would probably have come out better.

The big zoom is probably more convenient too, especially when situations change quickly. I like using prime lenses that have no zoom - it forces you to step towards or backwards to get the framing right, but if you have an elephant charging you down, you don't have the time to change lens, reverse the car and shoot at the same time

Edit: to answer your previous question: shutter speed and aperture are controlled by rotating knobs or wheel buttons. It's pretty much standard with all DSLRs.

If you go to Nikon or Canon's website, you can download the manuals for the cameras. If you jump to sections which describe how to use the camera in aperture priority mode or shutter priority mode, it will probably make a lot more sense.

[Niko]

I see the term PRIME LENSES being used allot

What exactly in detail is a prime lense compared to a non-prime lense?

Thank you

[Niko]

TF Boy

Thanks for the excellent description of shutter speed and aperture. Comparing it to a pipe and bucket with water flow was very helpful in understanding how all this works.

Is there any rule of them over which is better? To use shutter speed and let camera set aperture or to set aperture and let camera adjust shutter speed.

Also as far as shutter speeds, there are many different shutter speeds and how exactly do you determine what is the correct shutter speed for the shot you want to take? Example setting shutter speed for sunlight when the photo is a flower, a scenic view, a moving target etc? Any rules of thumb here

Also the same question for the aperture.

How do you know if the shot you are taking requires you to increase or decrease the aperture setting?