Coppers with guns

[oralpain]

I have to disagree. Armed criminals have an advantage over unarmed police, being armed or not scarecly chnages the balance agaisnt armed police. Police are far more willing to shoot first and ask questions later if there is any hint an assialant or other suspicious person is armed. Police also tend to significantly out number violent criminals, in practice. Getting into a confrontation with armed police, even if you are armed yourself, is quite often a fatal mistake. I'm sure some criminals would feel compelled to arm themselves against police if the police beacame armed, but this would be a rarity.

Armed criminals are more common in the US not because of armed law enforcement, but becasue of the prevalence of weapons. The US is saturated with weapons. Supply is huge. It's really easy to get guns, illegaly anyway. Small firearms are common enough to be nearly disposeable over here. This is also why no gun laws have been effective, they do nothing to change the supply, or remove the firearms already in play (indeed, such as task would be impossible) and the criminals obviously don't care if their firearms are illegal, most have more important things to worry about.

When police do come upon a crime, or have the need to arrest some one after the fact, being armed will geive them a greater chance of success, even when going up agaisnt an armed individual. Unarmed police are at a disadvantage against even unarmed assailants. It's harder to out run a bullet than to out run a police officer. Being confronted by a pair of police with clubs, peperspray, or tasers, is far less intimidating than being confronted by ones with guns, esp if they seem ready to end your life if you flinch the wrong way. Guns inspire more coperation, more quickly than just about anything, criminals know this, the government and police should figure it out too.

The vast majority of criminals also attempt avoid police when commiting crimes and to avoid conflict with police period. Armed citizens are, in all honestly, far more of a deterrent than armed police. If I'm going to rob someone/some place, I won't be doing it when police are looking over my shoulder, or close by. The fact that any given residence in my country has a good chance of having a firearm of some sort makes people think twice before breaking in. Many a burglar has come through a window only to endup face to face with the owner and his or her firearm, or dead from a wound delivered by such.

Realisitically I think a society either needs to have no guns (at all, with very few exceptions), so no one can get them, or the majority needs to have access to them to beable to defend themseves from others (wether that be criminals, abusive police, or members a potentially oppressive government/military) that do.

[oralpain]

A horse can't fit everywhere, they can't climb as well as people, and they can't out run most cars. They also tend to panic/bolt, or die, if shot with a firearm of reasonable caliber.

[spikegifted]

...or die, if shot with a firearm of reasonable caliber.

As do a lot of other things... including armed coppers.

[RVF500]

Over here (Malaysia) the police are armed. Even the security guards in shopping centres are armed (dunno why). However there is very little gun crime. This may have something to do with the fact that being caught in possession of a firearm is a hanging offense. In fact armed robbers normally don't hang. Mainly because the police tend to shoot them out of hand anyway. On th eother hand it may have something to do with the mentality of the people here. They are simply not a gun culture. Whilst working in Switzerland I also experienced a nation with a mindset that allowed large scale gun ownership but had virtually no gun crime. Once again I believe this is down to the mindset of the people. It's not a case of whether or not guns are available, in the UK we have probably the strictest gun laws in Europe, but a case of the mentality of the people in their attitudes towards guns in general.

I drove into Heathrow yesterday and for the first time saw a police checkpoint outside the airport with a group of armed coppers. I've been around firearms most of my adult life and it didn't phase me but my wife found it intimidating. I hope we don't sink to a level where this is a common sight around the UK. It will mean we have lost the battle against gun crime. I realise that this is a response to the recent terrorist activity and not a response to the idiots that think it is cool to be a 'gangsta' or the thugs from Eastern Europe who have imported their brand of criminality to the UK in recent years.

The only thing that will get through to the armed criminal is if he/she thinks that the chances of getting caught are so high that to carry a weapon is a risk not worth taking. Ultimately the penalty is for getting caught in the first place. Earlier in the thread someone said spend money to make policing more effcient not better armed (or words to that effect) sounds smart to me.

Apologies if I'm rambling a bit, just got off a plane and am jetlagged.

[pgudge]

mm, totaly unsure. We dont have mainy cases in the news where a 'on the beat' cop has been shot or injured. As soon as the coppers are alerted of a guns presence, the armed response is called in. I think this is more than enough.

Plus the Crims will then feel the urge to get equiped with a gun to stand a chance against the cops.

IMO.

[Galant]

Well this thread just a got a nice discussion point, with the Muslim Council fearful of a shoot on site policy, is this the start of a new era for UK police, and can we trust our ow police force?

[pgudge]

I dont think the police can be blamed for keeping the UK people safe. They have obviously shown excellent abilitied under terrorist events, and I think any action performed under such event should be seen as a "in the publics interest"

Yes inocent people will suffer, no one like this, no one wants this to happen, but unfortunatley, it does happen, and will happen.

[RVF500]

They got their shoot on site policy today. 1 bomber deceased. Forgive me if I don't shed a tear. Also if the reports are correct then the copper definitely made sure of his man. Sends a nice loud message to the would be bomber community.

A similar message was sent in the mid '80s with the Iranian embassy siege. It said 'we will deal with you in an extremely robust manner if you bring your violence here' and we have had nothing international up until the other week. Todays shooting of the individual in London just re-affirmed that message. I think it also gives that feeling to Londoners that the other side are not having it all their own way. Might sound cliched but it is actually very important mentally.

My views on cops with guns are recorded in these forums. But I can't argue with todays events. Who knows how many lives that cop may have saved by shooting that character dead. Not nice, not pretty but I personally believe it was totally justified. I hope the cop doesn't have too many sleepless nights over it because he doesn't deserve to.

[G4Z]

Well, I have to say I find it suspicious that there happened to be 5 armed police on that tube to take this guy out, apparently they tackled him to the ground before shooting him, if you ask me that is a waste of potentialy useful information.

Sounds more like the SAS than the police.

[RVF500]

Police use the same weapons as the military e.g H&K. If the cop was afraid that the 'cornered rat' had stumbled on to the train in a last gasp bid to set off a bomb in a crowded space then he would have opened fire immediately.

Police only hand over to military in a siege situation after a hostage has been killed. I don't believe this was military.

Also naming the cop would only attract retribution against his family. Definitely shold not be named.

[oralpain]

I'd really need to know where this guy was shot. If they shot him in a manner (in the chest) that could have set off any explosive he had, then what the police did was a mistake. If they tackeld him to make sure they could kill him without hitting anything he may have been carrying (shooting him in the head, or therabouts), this is understandable.

Shooting someone that is potentialy carrying an unstable high explosive (such as acetone peroxide), while he/she is sprinting through a populated place is probably a bad idea, you cannot be sure of where you will hit him/her.

[TiG]

I certainly go with the SAS thoughts, SO19 i thought had to be in police uniforms, don't think they work in 3 man squads. Kill mechanism and shouts to get out seemed much more SAS to me.

Plus low velocity bullets?.... my gut feeling says sas all the way.

I don't think the sas do shoot to immobilse...

TiG

[phunkygal]

The police now have a licsence to shoot anyone who is non white and wearing a backpack on london transport, and im sure this will have horrible consequences. kill first, explain (or not) later. not that im saying all police are racist biggots, just a lot of the ones ive met. we are slowly going down the road that america has chosen following Bush's heavily influence on blair and soon enough our gun culture will escalte just as americans has as the culture of fear is exagerated thorugh the media and more people purchase the damn things.

remember harry stanley, jimmy ashley david ewin etc

[iranu]

The police now have a licsence to shoot anyone who is non white and wearing a backpack on london transport, and im sure this will have horrible consequences. kill first, explain (or not) later. not that im saying all police are racist biggots, just a lot of the ones ive met. we are slowly going down the road that america has chosen following Bush's heavily influence on blair and soon enough our gun culture will escalte just as americans has as the culture of fear is exagerated thorugh the media and more people purchase the damn things.

That is utter crap. There is a mandatory investigation following a fatal shooting by the police. If any officer has acted improperly, especially in this situation given the number of witnesses, then he would most likely be jailed for manslaughter or worse. Armed Police officers have the most rigorous training and certainly won't be looking for a chance to act like Rambo.

This bloke was followed by armed police and when challenged ran off and down the escalators on to the tube. Given that he was wearing an unseasonally warm, large jacket and the fact that other black or Asian looking men had tried to blow up 3 tubes and a bus earlier that day, his actions were highly suspicious. If I had been in the cops shoes I would have suspected a suicide bomber trying to detonate a bomb in a last ditch effort.

He was shot 5 times in the head. I would too. Or would you like police to stand back and let suicide bombers get onto trains packed full of people (one of the bombers stood next to a woman who had a baby in her arms, before trying to detonate the bomb) in order to kill them? It takes no time what so ever to detonate a bomb. With suicide bombers even challenging them is not advised because it gives them time to detonate the bomb. ou don't run from armed police.

Your statement is typical of the "oh, we can't stop Asian looking men in the street because it's racist" nonsense,that stops the police doing their duty of protecting the public including white/black/asian people. Look at the faces of the dead from last week. Any self respecting member of the public will understand that we are now experiencing attacks from Islamic fundamentalists who are Asian/Black. Or are these photo's of white people?

Who do you think we should ask to search on the underground? White little old ladies with shopping trollies and blue rinses? That's right, bury your PC head in the sand for fear of offending someone. Better to offend than kill 56 people and maim scores of others.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

Secondly your statement about people buying guns is absurd. I'll pick one up from Tesco's this afternoon with my shopping. 50 hollow point cartridges too sir? We have a special BOGOF offer on these today. GET REAL.

[phunkygal]

That is utter crap. There is a mandatory investigation following a fatal shooting by the police. If any officer has acted improperly, especially in this situation given the number of witnesses, then he would most likely be jailed for manslaughter or worse. Armed Police officers have the most rigorous training and certainly won't be looking for a chance to act like Rambo..

yeah shouldnt someone be being arrested right this second then seeing as the guy has NO connection to the bombings and was a brazillian innocent?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm
ok i may be slightly biased here due to jimmy but i have not heard of a case yet where a police officer who has shot someone wrongly has ever gone to jail. in jimmys case he was naked in bed with his gf, the police bust in and shot him straight away, he had no weapon and posed absolutely no threat and they walked straight in and shot him. all his family ever got was an apology.

i know that the police need to be able to control these suicide bombers, i just dont think they should be able to shoot to kill, but to maim. also i think they should have to have at least some sort of evidence, although im the first to admit this is a hard task.

Secondly your statement about people buying guns is absurd. I'll pick one up from Tesco's this afternoon with my shopping. 50 hollow point cartridges too sir? We have a special BOGOF offer on these today. GET REAL.

im not saying we can get guns easily now, but pretty soon if we carry on in our copycat american behaviour. whats the film where michael moore gets a gun in some american state for opening a bank account - think its bowling for columbine. dont they sell bulletes in wall mart as well? incedently i hate that film.

[rajagra]

The police now have a licsence to shoot anyone who is non white and wearing a backpack on london transport, and im sure this will have horrible consequences. kill first, explain (or not) later. not that im saying all police are racist biggots, just a lot of the ones ive met. we are slowly going down the road that america has chosen following Bush's heavily influence on blair and soon enough our gun culture will escalte just as americans has as the culture of fear is exagerated thorugh the media and more people purchase the damn things.

That's a remarkable amount of bigotry from someone who claims to oppose it.