Sharia Law in the UK?

[JPreston]

Whilst I agree with you on the sky fairy stuff I'm not sure about arbitration with regard to how sharia law will be interpreted and administered within Britain. I think we would have real problems with getting a British consensus with regard to the interpretation of sharia law and balanced representation of people to sit in these "courts". I fear that we could gravitate towards people being coerced or threatened to use these courts rather than the alternative. That may even be occurring today. Voluntary to you and me is quite natural, we don't have any pressures to conform through family, relatives, neighbours or friends, with regard to which court system we use. I have no problem with the religious doing this under the current framework for legislation, however, at the moment I do not consider this to be a good idea with regard to islam and muslims. The law should protect the most vulnerable in society and I think in this case it won't.

I agree totally, and recognised all of that when I made my post. I was sort of saying that under perfect conditions - no coercion - they can already behave within the framework of their religions on the limited mundane set of issues that Williams' fans want to limit his comments to. But the safety net of actual legislation that isn't based on hocus-pocus must never be withdrawn from anyone, in particular especially vulnerable groups such as recent women immigrants within certain muslim communities.

Given this, why on Earth would the frock-wearing hobo spout soundbites about how the UK will adopt a pseudo-system of rules including many which are completely incompatible with modern civilisation? This is just dog-whistle sermonizing from an irrelevant relic who craves attention, so let's throw dung at him for a while before he inevitably slips back out of the headlines and the national conscience.

The question of nuclear disarmament aside, his beliefs on other social issues of today - such as the link between homosexuality and the weather - not to mentions his job cause him to hold extremely conservative positions on everything....exactly as one would expect of a man who worships ultimate authority and believes the most bizarre things that he is told without ever letting little thing like facts interfere ....

And even The Guardian doesn't like him....

[Bhavv]

Religion and law should never mix.

Back when britain was under catholic rule (cant remember the century), Scientists that thought that the world was not the centre of the universe were killed.

Today, people in muslim countries are killed if they are homosexual.

Religion just likes to kill people that dont follow its rules.

[Hunain]

Religion and law should never mix.

Back when britain was under catholic rule (cant remember the century), Scientists that thought that the world was not the centre of the universe were killed.

Today, people in muslim countries are killed if they are homosexual.

Religion just likes to kill people that dont follow its rules.

Woohoo Bhav, thats a big statement you made about homosexuals being killed in muslim countries, I dont know why everyone takes such negative opinions about muslims, I am a muslim and im proud, I dont enforce my religion on anyone, I appreciate "good" anywhere, by anyone, I dont condemn any other religion, nor do I think I have the right and that is the case with all muslims but a few who give us a bad name, but its a big debate, and not the topic of this thread. Dont flame me please!

[Blitzen]

These stupid laws and the way in which certain Muslims act isnt defined by the faith....its defined usually by the country they live in.

Saudi and Yemen seem to be the vicious parts of the world where this religion is based on violence and hatred.

The problem here is that all Muslims, wherever they originate from are treated the same.
Unfortunately though, how can this be split into those that are trustworthy and those that are out and out extremists.

With these 'Sharia Courts', each judge (or whatever they are called' is bound to have a different opinion to another so no law can be followed.
People will also be threatened to use this system rather than the correct British legal system.

Basically if you want to live like a Brit and have our priviledges then take it all. Dont just pick out the parts like education, welfare and OUR religious beliefs that suit your own needs.

One last thing............if i was getting divorced tomorrow i would suddenly class myslef as a Muslim. That way i would DEFINITELY come through it more favourably than i would in a normal court. How would anyone stop me from professing i was a different religion to get more out of a divorce.

Its simply unworkable and personally i think anyone that asks for their faith to be considered in a court of law is taking downright liberties.
Although i am not religious, Christianity is NEVER given a second thought by the Muslim faith. Our right s are going down the pan and Islam is building up....this is TOTALLY wrong!

If you want to live like a Muslim, then live in a Muslim country because Britain DEFINITELY isnt and i hope to God it never will be.

[shadowmaster]

One last thing............if i was getting divorced tomorrow i would suddenly class myslef as a Muslim. That way i would DEFINITELY come through it more favourably than i would in a normal court. How would anyone stop me from professing i was a different religion to get more out of a divorce.

But for this to happen the other party (your wife) would have to agree to use a sharia court.

Under current English law, people may devise their own way to settle a dispute in front of an agreed third party as long as both sides agree to the process.

[Hunain]

I agree with you blitzen, regarding the fact that most muslims behave in a certain way due to the country they are brought up in, nothing to do with islamic teaching, Thank God some people do realize that. As for the shariah court, it is not entirely correct to say that each judge will have his own view.

I study law, externally from the University of London, Islamic law is a complete subject and it is logical and has coherent sets of rules, its not based upon personal opinions, and its not that simple as the divorce example you gave.Obviously the check and balance aspect is controversial, if this sort of an idea is to be implemented, maybe more thought needs to be given in its mechanisms.

As for you saying, if you want to live like a muslim, live in a muslim country, it is kind of harsh, people do have the liberty to choose where to live, obviously then comes the point, to accept the norms of that country and do not try to change the country to favor your religion. I agree with that. I love Britain, I love the people and I hope it stays the same, but this world is for all humans, you cant say, do XYZ or dont live here, it is human to cater for minorities, anyways, its a long discussion, Im not here to change anyone's opinion (not like i can either) Im just here to state mine. Love Britain, peace to the world.

[MoogleViper]

I think it's stupid. Why do they come to our country if they just want to change it?

[Blitzen]

I study law, externally from the University of London, Islamic law is a complete subject and it is logical and has coherent sets of rules, its not based upon personal opinions

Theoretically its not.
But these courts could not be scrutinised by anyone accept the person that runs them. There would be nothing to stop them applying their own rules.

Thats the problem with having a religious court as opposed to a legal one.

but this world is for all humans, you cant say, do XYZ or dont live here, it is human to cater for minorities

I think its very fair to say XYZ or move on. All countries adopt this policy but very few enforce it. In fact, its probably only the Muslim states that really do enforce it.
I certainly wouldnt be able to build a CofE church in downtown Karachi or go on the beer in Dubai and stagger home at 2 in the morning.
Then we are expected to be happy with mosques sprouting up everywhere, gangs of immigrant chavs roaming the streets making certain areas -no-go and having to spend millions of ££££ to have interpreters at the DHSS so people that cant even speak our language can claim this countries benefits.

I also agree thats its human to cater for the minorities.
In the same vein, i also think its foolish of Britain to cater for minorities at the expense of the majority which, unfortunately, is what happens now.
There is no denying that.

Fact is, if i speak Polish or worshiop Allah amongst other things, i will be treated with kid gloves, given all the help i require and have a larger proprtion of the law on my side.

Live and Let Live - Yes
At What Cost?????????

[nichomach]

Whilst there is significant persecution of Christians in Pakistan, there is an official Anglican church, with a diocese of Karachi .
If we're banging on about chavs turning areas into no-go areas can we also bear in mind that the vast majority are probably not immigrants but were born and raised here, and can we also not exclude the white British chavs and hoodies that hassle my wife when she's going to the shops?

Your assertion that the courts suggested could not be scrutinised by anyone else is complete nonsense, as anyone who read Rowan's speech and understood it would know. Any such courts, even if they were adopted at all, would be subject to UK law. They wouldn't exist in parallel or as a separate jurisdiction, but would have to operate within and subject to our framework of rights and protections. We already have the same provision in secular matters with parties to contracts agreeing to use arbitration services in disputes, and for Jews and Roman Catholics in matters such as marital breakdown, as has been repeatedly pointed out above. Society has yet to fall apart at the seams as a consequence.

As far as Poles are concerned, given that most of the ones we see locally are doing the jobs that local Brits were too bloody proud to do I'd say give them all the help they want.

Oh, and MoogleViper? See above as to the origins of the people you're complaining about. It's not a question of them "coming over here". We have a very large indigenous Muslim population. Also, we're talking about people agreeing to use Sharia for civil disputes between Muslims - and subject to UK law. It wouldn't change anything for you at all.

[Blitzen]

Whilst there is significant persecution of Christians in Pakistan, there is an official Anglican church, with a diocese of Karachi .
If we're banging on about chavs turning areas into no-go areas can we also bear in mind that the vast majority are probably not immigrants but were born and raised here, and can we also not exclude the white British chavs and hoodies that hassle my wife when she's going to the shops?

Your assertion that the courts suggested could not be scrutinised by anyone else is complete nonsense, as anyone who read Rowan's speech and understood it would know. Any such courts, even if they were adopted at all, would be subject to UK law. They wouldn't exist in parallel or as a separate jurisdiction, but would have to operate within and subject to our framework of rights and protections. We already have the same provision in secular matters with parties to contracts agreeing to use arbitration services in disputes, and for Jews and Roman Catholics in matters such as marital breakdown, as has been repeatedly pointed out above. Society has yet to fall apart at the seams as a consequence.

As far as Poles are concerned, given that most of the ones we see locally are doing the jobs that local Brits were too bloody proud to do I'd say give them all the help they want.

Oh, and MoogleViper? See above as to the origins of the people you're complaining about. It's not a question of them "coming over here". We have a very large indigenous Muslim population. Also, we're talking about people agreeing to use Sharia for civil disputes between Muslims - and subject to UK law. It wouldn't change anything for you at all.

Oh..im sorry! I forgot you were always right and everyone else is wrong. You just cant see anyone else point rather than your own.

You are talking a load of gaff (again) regarding the Poles. Its not just that Brits wont do the jobs. Its the fact that the Poles are so cheap the Brits wouldnt be able to afford to do them if they wanted to. Get outside once in a while and see whats happening around you.

Lets face it.....from your posts on this subject, and your obvious undying devotion of anything 'Church', your views are far more biased than anyone elses.

I dont know, or care where you live. Maybe your society that you inhabit isnt falling apart at the seams. I can tell you know though....yours is the exception rather than the rule.


Tambourine practice anyone????

[nichomach]

Oh..im sorry! I forgot you were always right and everyone else is wrong.
Lets face it.....from your posts on this subject, and your obvious undying devotion of anything to do with the Arch Bishop, your views are far more biased than anyones.
Tambourine practice anyone????

Well, I forgot that you were fact-intolerant - epi-pen for Mr Blitzen please, danger of anaphylactic shock!

Seriously, Blitzen, I appreciate that having been proven wrong on every point in your last post must be a little trying for you, but do you HAVE to resort to the ad hominem crap every time it happens?

[Hunain]

O cmon people, lets not fight, we just want to state our views, I have stated them, have agreed with some of Blitzen's points and stated some of mine. Being a muslim, i simply do not like the harsh attitude adopted by some people towards us. People just drop in and say, "ITS STUPID, WHY DO THEY COME HERE IF THEY WANT TO CHANGE IT" Firstly, no one wants to change anything, just want some help, making lives easier for everyone, secondly the mere tone of that sentence is hostile...and this hostility towards muslims is what bothers me. I love Britain as i stated earlier, I love the people, I should not be judged by my religion, it is not like all the crimes in the world are in instigated by muslims, but it seems only we take all the blame..which is a shame...wow, rhymes

[nichomach]

Not everyone thinks like that, Hunain; and some of us are deeply saddened by those that do.

[Blitzen]

Well, I forgot that you were fact-intolerant - epi-pen for Mr Blitzen please, danger of anaphylactic shock!

Seriously, Blitzen, I appreciate that having been proven wrong on every point in your last post must be a little trying for you, but do you HAVE to resort to the ad hominem crap every time it happens?

I dont wish to flame but all you have proved is that you you cant stand anyone elses opinion and you think you are always right....which you blatantly are not.

The evidence being you automatically assume in your statement that i have been proved wrong on every point. Being a forum, which encourages debate, how can ANYONES views be wrong.
With your self professed intellect i thought you may have noticed that.

Instead of quoting internet references, try stepping out of your leafy suburb occassionally and you will see a completely different world to the enchanted land you are so obviously used to.

Maybe if i became all 'Happy Clappy' i would agree with you occassionally (but i doubt it).

Not everyone thinks like that, Hunain; and some of us are deeply saddened by those that do.

If you werent so busy wallowing in your own self importance you may have noticed that Hunain and myself agreed on many points. It was actually an interesting discussion until your waffle disrupted it.

[nichomach]

You've stated that there couldn't be a church in Karachi. Incorrect; and I proved that. That's not opinion, you were factually wrong.

You stated that any Sharia courts would not be scrutinised by anyone else under Rowan's proposal. Factually incorrect, again. Again, not opinion, you were wrong in fact.

Of course you object to the references I give, they simply provide evidence of your error.

As I said in a previous post:

BTW, if your definition of flaming is pointing out that what you've said is palpably, demonstrably untrue, then fine; we'll agree to differ. I'll tell the truth, and you can just make random stuff up to get worked up about. Fair enough?

Once again, you resort to ad hominem attack, because for all of your professed love of "debate", what you call debate is simply spouting a load of nonsense. Oh, if my suburb were THAT leafy, we wouldn't be hassled every day by hoodies and chavs, and my car wouldn't get vandalised. Of course, said hoodies and chavs are almost overwhelmingly white, but that doesn't do a lot for your argument either, does it? Standard tactic for you, though; you're the only one who lives in the real world, the only one who speaks from experience, blah blah blah....

[Hunain]

umm, If i may, nichomach and blitzen, both of you are correct in holding your opinions pals..lets cool it down and not talk about each others suburbs specially , we can talk about them in a friendlier way, lets keep it healthy.

I do want to admit that religious discrimination is prevalent in muslims societies as well, people do not like to mingle with christians so to say ( with all due respect to the religion ) but I think that was the older generation and its legacy we are probably holding on to, we can change these things, I try my level best, a Christian family were my neighbours in my old house, I used to share food with them, they used to come and eat with me, we used to cook for each other sometimes. If they had dessert, they would save a piece for me at times and like wise.

Even though other muslim neighbours did ask me unbelievingly, "you eat with them?" It is sad, but we can change it. If I see a foreign person in my muslim country, I really feel the urge to take care of him/her, you know, guide them around, treat them well, make them feel at home, but they mostly dont trust me, or anyone else for the matter, because im a muslim, we steal, we are terrorists, most of them are scared of us ( and no, i dont even have a beard ). When will such trends change? When will we realise that we have alot to share, being humans, we can be friends and love each other? Someone has to do something...